wheat or chaff

[Chowmah]

MATTHEW 3 [11] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: HE SHALL BAPTIZE YOU WITH THE HOLY GHOST, and with fire:[12] Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; BUT HE WILL BURN UP THE CHAFF WITH UNQUENCHABLE FIRE.

Theres 2 types of people mentioned in scripture above. Those who are baptized with the Holy Spirit {many claim they are} and the chaff who are burned up. Can you prove by scripture that you are not the chaff to be burned with fire? Must you 1st repent of sin before you recieve the Holy Ghost {verse 11}?

 

[Chowmah]

2COR.11[3] But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.[4] For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or IF YE RECEIVE ANOTHER SPIRIT, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted,ye might well bear with him.

Do you think that maybe there are many who believe they have the Holy Spirit and in reality do not. Like the people described in scripture below

MATT.7 [21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.[22] MANY WILL SAY to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[23] And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY.

 

[Chowmah]

ISAIAH 5 [24] Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and THE FLAME CONSUMETH THE CHAFF, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: BECAUSE THEY HAVE CAST AWAY THE LAW OF THE LORD OF HOSTS, and despised the word of THE HOLY ONE of Israel.

Theres the chaffers. Theres the reason.

 

[Dr. Walter]

2COR.11[3] But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.[4] For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or IF YE RECEIVE ANOTHER SPIRIT, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted,ye might well bear with him.

Do you think that maybe there are many who believe they have the Holy Spirit and in reality do not. Like the people described in scripture below

MATT.7 [21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.[22] MANY WILL SAY to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[23] And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY.

All you have to do is to understand what is "chaff" versus what is "wheat." Do you know the difference? The chaff is the disposable lifeless hull. The "wheat" contains life.

The same analogy in Matthew 13 between "tares" and the children of God or wheat grass. Tares never were wheat but only wheat look alikes.

The issue is between the pretender look alikes and the real children of God an d1 John 2:19 gives you some insight that real true children of God never fall away from saving faith but only the pretenders do as the true "NO DOUBT CONTINUE" but the pretenders "WENT OUT from us...." Why? In order for US to know the difference between the pretenders and the real - apostasy exposes the pretender!

 

[Chowmah]

All you have to do is to understand what is "chaff" versus what is "wheat." Do you know the difference? The chaff is the disposable lifeless hull. The "wheat" contains life.

The same analogy in Matthew 13 between "tares" and the children of God or wheat grass. Tares never were wheat but only wheat look alikes.

The issue is between the pretender look alikes and the real children of God an d1 John 2:19 gives you some insight that real true children of God never fall away from saving faith but only the pretenders do

DANIEL 11 [32] And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. [33] And THEY THAT UNDERSTAND AMONG THE PEOPLE SHALL INSTRUCT MANY: YET THEY SHALL FALL by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. [34] Now WHEN THEY SHALL FALL, THEY SHALL BE HOLPEN WITH A LITTLE HELP: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. [35] And SOME OF THEM OF UNDERSTANDING SHALL FALL, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

They shall fall! To try, to purge and to be made white

 

[Chowmah]

This falling away can also be found in new testament

2 THES. 2 [1]Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, EXCEPT THERE COME A FALLING AWAY FIRST, and that MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, THE SON OF PERDITION;

 

[Dr. Walter]

DANIEL 11 [32] And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. [33] And THEY THAT UNDERSTAND AMONG THE PEOPLE SHALL INSTRUCT MANY: YET THEY SHALL FALL by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. [34] Now WHEN THEY SHALL FALL, THEY SHALL BE HOLPEN WITH A LITTLE HELP: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. [35] And SOME OF THEM OF UNDERSTANDING SHALL FALL, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

They shall fall! To try, to purge and to be made white

This is not the "fall" into apostasy (2 Thes. 2:3) but a fall "BY THE SWORD and BY FLAME and BY CAPTIVITY and BY SPOIL. It is a FALL from PHYSICAL SAFETY and SECURITY.

You need to read the context and in this case read what the text says versus what it does not say. Daniel explictily defines exactly what kind of fall he is talking about and it is not what Paul is talking about in 2 Thes. 2.

 

[Chowmah]

Daniel explictily defines exactly what kind of fall he is talking about and it is not what Paul is talking about in 2 Thes. 2.

Sure it is Doc. The 2 scriptures are speaking of the same exact event

2 THES. 2 [1]Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, EXCEPT THERE COME A FALLING AWAY FIRST, and that MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, THE SON OF PERDITION; [4] WHPPOSETH AND EXALTETH HIMSELF ABOVE ALL THAT IS CALLED GOD, OR THAT IS WORSHIPPED; SO THAT HE AS GOD SITTETH IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, SHEWING HIMSELF THAT HE IS GOD.

In 2Thes2 you have the falling away and then the bad guy exalting himself

DANIEL 11 [32] And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. [33] And THEY THAT UNDERSTAND AMONG THE PEOPLE SHALL INSTRUCT MANY: YET THEY SHALL FALL by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. [34] Now WHEN THEY SHALL FALL, THEY SHALL BE HOLPEN WITH A LITTLE HELP: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. [35] And SOME OF THEM OF UNDERSTANDING SHALL FALL, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. [36] And the king shall do according to his will; and HE SHALL EXALT HIMSELF, AND MAGNIFY HIMSELF ABOVE EVERY GOD,

In Daniel 11 you have the falling away and then the bad guy exalting himself

 

[Chowmah]

Doc
You werent gonna try and tell me the falling away in 2Thes2 pertained to the rapture...were ya

Please tell me it aint so

 

[Dr. Walter]

Sure it is Doc. The 2 scriptures are speaking of the same exact event

2 THES. 2 [1]Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, EXCEPT THERE COME A FALLING AWAY FIRST, and that MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, THE SON OF PERDITION; [4] WHPPOSETH AND EXALTETH HIMSELF ABOVE ALL THAT IS CALLED GOD, OR THAT IS WORSHIPPED; SO THAT HE AS GOD SITTETH IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, SHEWING HIMSELF THAT HE IS GOD.

In 2Thes2 you have the falling away and then the bad guy exalting himself

DANIEL 11 [32] And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. [33] And THEY THAT UNDERSTAND AMONG THE PEOPLE SHALL INSTRUCT MANY: YET THEY SHALL FALL by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. [34] Now WHEN THEY SHALL FALL, THEY SHALL BE HOLPEN WITH A LITTLE HELP: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. [35] And SOME OF THEM OF UNDERSTANDING SHALL FALL, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. [36] And the king shall do according to his will; and HE SHALL EXALT HIMSELF, AND MAGNIFY HIMSELF ABOVE EVERY GOD,

In Daniel 11 you have the falling away and then the bad guy exalting himself

No one is arguing that the time is the same and the bad guy is the same. However, the term "falling away" used by Paul is "apostasia" and means a fall by apostatizing from the truth - theological fall whereas Daniel is speaking about the true people of God falling from PHYSICAL SECURITY by tribulation from the Antichrist because they will not turn from the truth whereas Paul is talking about false professors falling into aspostasy by error. Paul is talking about followers of the antichrist while Daniel is talking about the followers of God. The followers ofGod do not fall by error into apostasy but fall by tribulation into troublesome times.

Go back and read it more carefully.

 

[Chowmah]

No one is arguing that the time is the same and the bad guy is the same. However, the term "falling away" used by Paul is "apostasia" and means a fall by apostatizing from the truth - theological fall whereas Daniel is speaking about the true people of God falling from PHYSICAL SECURITY by tribulation from the Antichrist because they will not turn from the truth whereas Paul is talking about false professors falling into aspostasy by error. Paul is talking about followers of the antichrist while Daniel is talking about the followers of God. The followers ofGod do not fall by error into apostasy but fall by tribulation into troublesome times.

Go back and read it more carefully.

So what your saying is you know both scriptures are talking about a falling away before the bad guy exalts himself above the true God. But the falling away in the 2 scriptures are a different and separate falling way? Theres no scriptural proff of that Doc. Would a belief that the fallings away being one and the same put a dent in some other doctrinal belief of yours?

 

[Dr. Walter]

So what your saying is you know both scriptures are talking about a falling away before the bad guy exalts himself above the true God. But the falling away in the 2 scriptures are a different and separate falling way? Theres no scriptural proff of that Doc. Would a belief that the fallings away being one and the same put a dent in some other doctrinal belief of yours?

I am trying to be reasonable and nice to you. Daniel gives you plenty of information to define the fall he is talking about and Paul gives you plenty of information to define the fall he is talking about and they are not the same as any casual reading of the text easily demonstrates.

In Daniel God's people fall in TRIBULATION by means of the sword of the Antichrist DUE TO RESISTING the antichrist. This is a fall INTO TROUBLES.

In Thessalonians these people come over to side of the Antichrist due to apostasizing from the truth. This is a fall FROM TRUTH.

Again, simply reread the texts and the contexts in which they are found and it is easy, extremely easy to see they are as different as black is from white with the only comparisons being the end times, the antichrist while completely different reactions in the end times to the Antichrist.

Do you have glasses or need to borrow some (sorry, but couldn't help myself).

 

[Chowmah]

Do you have glasses or need to borrow some (sorry, but couldn't help myself).

Love it Doc

Thanks for the smile

 

[Dr. Walter]

Love it Doc

Thanks for the smile

Your welcome!

 

[Chowmah]

MATTHEW 3 [11] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:[12] Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; BUT HE WILL BURN UP THE CHAFF WITH UNQUENCHABLE FIRE.

JER.23 [28] The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the CHAFF TO THE WHEAT? saith the LORD.[29] Is not my word like as a fire?........ [38] But since ye say, The burden of the LORD; therefore thus saith the LORD; Because ye say this word, The burden of the LORD, and I have sent unto you, saying, Ye shall not say, THE BURDEN of the LORD;[39] Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence:[40] And I will bring an EVERLASTING REPROACH upon you, and a PERPETUAL SHAME, WHICH SHALL NOT BE FORGOTTEN.

The wheat, the chaff, the fire. Is there a sabbath connection found in Jer.23?

THE BURDEN
JER.17 [21] Thus saith the LORD; Take heed to yourselves, and BEAR NO BURDEN on the sabbath day, nor bring it in by the gates of Jerusalem;[22] Neither CARRY FORTH A BURDEN out of your houses on the sabbath day, neither do ye any work, but hallow ye the sabbath day, as I commanded your fathers.[23] But they obeyed not, neither inclined their ear, but made their neck stiff, that they might not hear, nor receive instruction.[24] And it shall come to pass, if ye diligently hearken unto me, saith the LORD, to BRING IN NO BURDEN through the gates of this city on the sabbath day, but hallow the sabbath day, to do no work therein;[25] Then shall there enter into the gates of this city kings and princes sitting upon the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, they, and their princes, the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: and THIS CITY SHALL REMAIN FOR EVER.

THE EVERLASTING REPROACH
LEV.24 [8] Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an EVERLASTING COVENANT.

THE PERPETUAL SHAME WHICH SHALL NOT BE FORGOTTEN
JER.50 [4] In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Judah together, going and weeping: they shall go, and seek the LORD their God.[5] They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to the LORD in A PERPETUAL COVENANT that shall not be forgotten.[6] MY PEOPLE HATH BEEN LOST SHEEP: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, THEY HAVE FORGOTTEN THEIR RESTINGPLACE.

Sure does seem to be a sabbath connection