Do We Interprete genesis 1/2 as being Literal, Myth, or metaphorical then?

[Iconoclast]

I hold to both

I believe God's universe was created fully functional and with age built in.

Good responses Webdog.....I have'nt typed that too often:laugh:::
:thumbsup::applause:

 

[Sapper Woody]

What is time?

In discussing this exact thing with a physicist buddy of mine, I came up with the following definition (on my own, even!); Time is a man made invention enabling man to understand a three-dimensional world in a two-dimensional space.

Our view of time is skewed as humans. If we put our hand on a hot stove top, we jerk our hand back immediately. Scientifically, we know that the impulse to jerk back was triggered before the electrical impulse to feel the heat triggered the receptors in our brain. So we jerked before we felt it. Yet, when we remember the incident, we will remember that we jerked back because or after we felt it. Our memory of the time line is all messed up.

It is my personal belief that God's omnipresence extends to not only everywhere, but also everytime. I believe that God exists in all time at once, explaining the fact that He has no beginning or end, as time does not necessarily exist for God. He just is.

Now, as far as the Apparent Age theory, I have actually done quite a bit of research on this subject recently, as I was intending to write an extensive paper on the debate between creation and the theory of evolution. Now, I don't have space here to write my conclusions, but I have to say that based upon my own research the apparent age theory must be taken completely on faith. It cannot be scientifically proven, and eventually leads to the "Last Wednesday" argument, which asks, "If God would create the earth appearing old, then how do we know he didn't create the earth last Wednesday, planting memories in our minds, and making the earth appear old?"

Basically, you can't disprove the apparent age theory, as it can not be scientifically tested. But, neither can the fact that if you've trusted Christ as your Savior that He will take you to Heaven. Again, it's all in faith. But I think that is the way that God designs most of His dealings with man.

 

[David Lamb]

For one, the problem of astronomy, specifically how it is that we can see light from stars that are more than 10,000 light years away. I have looked in the field of astronomy for a YEC scientist's perspective but it seems that we are really lacking credibly qualified scientists that would offer very much in the way of a model for explaining this and other cosmological observances. This seems to be admittedly so from IRC and AiG. I would welcome any recommendations.

Why did God create the astronomical bodies (stars, moon, sun)? Genesis 1.14-18 says:

Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so. Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.
​

OK, so the light from the sun takes only about 8 minutes to reach earth, and its reflected light from the moon a little longer (8 minutes for the 93 million miles from sun to moon, plus an extra second or two for the reflected light to travel from moon to earth), but the nearest star is 4 light-years away (from memory). To suggest that God created the astronomical bodies, and then waited minutes (in the case of sun and moon) and many years (in the case of the stars) for them to fulfil their function doesn't make sense to me.

Trees take years to reach maturity, so do human beings, yet we don't read that God created tree seeds, and waited for them to grow, or that He created a baby, and waited 20 years for it to grow into an adult Adam. We are told specifically that He created, not tree seeds, but trees mature enough to have seeds in them, so why imagine that God did not create stars with the light from even the distant ones already shining on the earth?

 

[quantumfaith]

My position is UAAWABIE (unknown actual age with age built in earth).

, Never have heard of that, but interesting.

 

[kyredneck]

Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.

HankD

:thumbsup:

I believe God sees the whole thing at once and that concept is the key to understanding some of the 'picture stories' we have presented to us in Revelation.

 

[HankD]

In other words, time is the description of a sequence of events.

That's a good, very basic definition of time as we experience it. However, when you start taking into account Einstein's theories of time and space (which have been demonstrated, up to this point, to be very accurate), it is clear that time does not progress at the same rate for everyone.

I do not think we know if time is rooted in God's Being ("in Him we live and move and have our being") or if it is a created thing distinct from Him.

A difficult concept to grasp, probably impossible in our present state.
If time is part of God's essence then we are caught up in a "piece" (or "section" with a defined beginning and end) of eternity otherwise time is a created entity and God enters into the time continuum. Or something else.

In any case it is a mystery to us.

NIV Ecclesiastes 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.​

But what should we care?

Psalm 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.​

Proverbs 3

5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.​

HankD

 

[HankD]

:thumbsup:

I believe God sees the whole thing at once and that concept is the key to understanding some of the 'picture stories' we have presented to us in Revelation.

Indeed!

HankD

 

[quantumfaith]

I must say, I am very much appreciative that there appears to be no "hateful" vitriol thrown about toward one another even amidst the disagreement on these issues. I am indeed grateful.

 

[humblethinker]

... To suggest that God created the astronomical bodies, and then waited minutes (in the case of sun and moon) and many years (in the case of the stars)[/SIZE][/FONT] [/SIZE][/FONT]for them to fulfil their function doesn't make sense to me.

Trees take years to reach maturity, so do human beings, yet we don't read that God created tree seeds, and waited for them to grow, or that He created a baby, and waited 20 years for it to grow into an adult Adam. We are told specifically that He created, not tree seeds, but trees mature enough to have seeds in them, so why imagine that God did not create stars with the light from even the distant ones already shining on the earth?

Regarding life on earth, I agree with your assessment. Regarding the cosmos, I am willing to accept as a possibility that God did as you said. However, from a scientific perspective, it does fall into the "Last Wednesday" problem mentioned in a post above. I am intreagued at the idea that light might have traveled much faster during the week of creation.

Regardless, it seems much of this is like an infant observing the world around him gathering information and understanding with his sensory tools. His sensory tools, of which he has only awareness, barely understanding them, so far from being mastered, and when finally competent he realizes that they are not always trustworthy.

Excuse me while I am mesmerized by this captivating object of "creation"... I may look silly as I hit, pull, push, throw, drop, bite, and gum this idea.

 

[JesusFan]

That is an EXCELLENT philosophical question. Even the question of exactly "what time is" is excellent question. If you would like to experience some Sincere thinking into this, I would highly recommend:

"Time and Eternity: Exploring God's Relationship to time".

Wonderful book somewhat technical in places, helps one to understand the fundamental ideas of Relativity, quantum mechanics etc and their mathematical and philosophical relationships to time.

For "we created beings", I am convinced that time began at the instant of creation....the big bang (God's spoken word of creation). This "event" created the time-space continuum and dimensionality of our universe.

One can philosophically argue that "time" existed even prior to this, it would all be in whatever your precise definition of time might be.

ONLY Being that we can with condidence say is "outside" time, NOT affected by it, not restricted/bound up within it is God.

He has always existed from Eternity, period...

So from Eternity, was JUST Trinity existing...

Question is did he bring into creation the Time constant to ALl created beings when He first made heavens and the Angelic Hosts, or did it start with the fall of Lucifer, or did it start with His creation of Life upon the earth, or at fall of Adam?

And does Time itself cease to exist when new heavens and new earth recreated at end of the revelation?

 

[quantumfaith]

ONLY Being that we can with condidence say is "outside" time, NOT affected by it, not restricted/bound up within it is God.

He has always existed from Eternity, period...

So from Eternity, was JUST Trinity existing...

Question is did he bring into creation the Time constant to ALl created beings when He first made heavens and the Angelic Hosts, or did it start with the fall of Lucifer, or did it start with His creation of Life upon the earth, or at fall of Adam?

And does Time itself cease to exist when new heavens and new earth recreated at end of the revelation?

I don't think ANYONE who is at the very least a theist, would argue that the Creator (God) is anything other than apart from time (his creation). Some may argue, that God enters time, which I find no problem with, but most certainly, He the one who created in the first place, stands apart from it at will.

 

[InTheLight]

In discussing this exact thing with a physicist buddy of mine, I came up with the following definition (on my own, even!); Time is a man made invention enabling man to understand a three-dimensional world in a two-dimensional space.

The ability of man to discern the past from the present and to look forward to the future was a design feature of the Creator so I would refine your statement to say, "Timekeeping is a man-made invention."

Now, as far as the Apparent Age theory, I have actually done quite a bit of research on this subject recently, as I was intending to write an extensive paper on the debate between creation and the theory of evolution. Now, I don't have space here to write my conclusions, but I have to say that based upon my own research the apparent age theory must be taken completely on faith. It cannot be scientifically proven, and eventually leads to the "Last Wednesday" argument, which asks, "If God would create the earth appearing old, then how do we know he didn't create the earth last Wednesday, planting memories in our minds, and making the earth appear old?"

Good point. I had forgotten the "Last Wednesday" argument.

Another problem I have with the appearance of age question is that in the case of supernovas, God would be creating light beams showing a star blowing up that had never actually exploded. In other words, when a star goes super nova and it takes 250,000 years for the light beams to reach earth, if one believes in the apparent age argument, you believe that God created light beams en route to earth showing a star exploding when in fact the event never actually occurred.

Since it is impossible for God to lie (Titus 1:2, Heb 6:18), I can't accept the appearance of age theory.

 

[JesusFan]

I don't think ANYONE who is at the very least a theist, would argue that the Creator (God) is anything other than apart from time (his creation). Some may argue, that God enters time, which I find no problem with, but most certainly, He the one who created in the first place, stands apart from it at will.

Don't those who hold to God being "limited" to knowing future events though see Him as essentially being opreating "stuck in time?"
The Open Theism advocates?

 

[InTheLight]

Don't those who hold to God being "limited" to knowing future events though see Him as essentially being opreating "stuck in time?"
The Open Theism advocates?

If God knows every possible future outcome of every possible human agent's actions, isn't that all-knowing?

(Not that I necessarily hold to this view, just making the point.)

 

[quantumfaith]

Don't those who hold to God being "limited" to knowing future events though see Him as essentially being opreating "stuck in time?"
The Open Theism advocates?

I cannot speak intelligently about Open Theism, don't want to try.

 

[hillclimber1]

Previous explanations granted, the idea that star light would take over 1 billion years to reach us seems good enough reason to me to see the obvious conflict.

What if, when God made the light, it was infinitely fast.. That gets light from trillions of miles here now.. Then God begins slowing the light and man is walking about for 500+ years. Light continues to slow until reaching the 186K/sec speed we all know and love today? It could easily explain the creation taking one week and having been started only 6K years ago... And because of the speed of light change, we look out at a universe that looks so old that some light we see today are from stars long gone..

 

[webdog]

Since it is impossible for God to lie (Titus 1:2, Heb 6:18), I can't accept the appearance of age theory.

So you believe Adam was created an infant, and the woman created from Adam was also an infant that Adam had to raise?

 

[InTheLight]

So you believe Adam was created an infant, and the woman created from Adam was also an infant that Adam had to raise?

No. Do you believe that God created the appearance of stars exploding that never existed?

 

[webdog]

No. Do you believe that God created the appearance of stars exploding that never existed?

First, to your "no" answer. You said you cannot accept the appearance of age theory...so how can you say no? Does this pass your lie test?

To your question, yes. God can do whatever He wishes with His creation in building age into HIS creation as is evidenced by building age into man which you agreed to. Like hitting play in the middle of a movie.

 

[humblethinker]

What if, when God made the light, it was infinitely fast.. That gets light from trillions of miles here now.. Then God begins slowing the light and man is walking about for 500+ years. Light continues to slow until reaching the 186K/sec speed we all know and love today? It could easily explain the creation taking one week and having been started only 6K years ago... And because of the speed of light change, we look out at a universe that looks so old that some light we see today are from stars long gone..

I agree, as I've said in prior postings in this thread. I would be interested in what InTheLight thinks about this idea in light of what he said here:

Another problem I have with the appearance of age question is that in the case of supernovas, God would be creating light beams showing a star blowing up that had never actually exploded. In other words, when a star goes super nova and it takes 250,000 years for the light beams to reach earth, if one believes in the apparent age argument, you believe that God created light beams en route to earth showing a star exploding when in fact the event never actually occurred.