Jeremiah 7:31

[Winman]

In a thread that was closed, I posted three verses from Jeremiah that said the children of Judah were sacrificing their children to idols. God said he never commanded this sin, neither came it into his heart or mind.

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

Some here implied I was an Open Theist because I took this verse literally, that the sin of sacrificing their children did not come into God's mind or heart.

Here is what John Gill said of this verse, I am only including that part where he addressed "neither came it into my heart" for brevity.

``Tophet is Moloch, which was made of brass; and they heated him from his lower parts; and his hands being stretched out, and made hot, they put the child between his hands, and it was burnt; when it vehemently cried out; but the priests beat a drum, that the father might not hear the voice of his son, and his heart might not be moved:''
but in this he is mistaken; for "Tophet" was not the name of an idol, but of a place, as is clear from this and the following verse. There is some agreement between this account of Jarchi, and that which Diodorus Siculus F26 gives of Saturn, to whom children were sacrificed by the Carthaginians; who had, he says, a brasen image of Saturn, which stretched out his hands, inclining to the earth; so that a child put upon them rolled down, and fell into a chasm full of fire: which I commanded them not: not in my law, as the Targum; nor by any of the prophets, as Jarchi paraphrases it; he commanded them, as Kimchi observes, to burn their beasts, but not their sons and daughters. The instance of Abraham offering up Isaac will not justify it. The case of Jephthah's daughter, if sacrificed, was not by divine command. The giving of seed to Moloch, and letting any pass through the fire to him, is expressly forbidden, ( Leviticus 18:21 ) ( 20:23 ) : neither came it into my heart; it was not so much as thought of by him, still less desired, and much less commanded by him. Jarchi's note is,
``though I spoke to Abraham to slay his son, it did not enter into my heart that he should slay him, but to make known his righteousness.''

Please note where I have highlighted in red where John Gill said that this sin was no so much as a thought of God's, never desired, and even less commanded by him.

So, how do those that believe God decrees/ordains all things that come to pass deal with Gill's interpretation (which I happen to agree with)?

In addition, God spoke similar in Jer 19:5 and Jer 32:35

Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

In the earlier thread, Havensdad argued that when God said, "neither came it into my mind" that he was referring to his own command. I disagreed and argued that the word THAT shows that God was speaking of this sin, not his command. The phrases, "neither came it into my mind" is connected to the next phrase "that they should do this abomination".

What say you?

 

[JesusFan]

In a thread that was closed, I posted three verses from Jeremiah that said the children of Judah were sacrificing their children to idols. God said he never commanded this sin, neither came it into his heart or mind.

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

Some here implied I was an Open Theist because I took this verse literally, that the sin of sacrificing their children did not come into God's mind or heart.

Here is what John Gill said of this verse, I am only including that part where he addressed "neither came it into my heart" for brevity.



Please note where I have highlighted in red where John Gill said that this sin was no so much as a thought of God's, never desired, and even less commanded by him.

So, how do those that believe God decrees/ordains all things that come to pass deal with Gill's interpretation (which I happen to agree with)?

In addition, God spoke similar in Jer 19:5 and Jer 32:35

Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

In the earlier thread, Havensdad argued that when God said, "neither came it into my mind" that he was referring to his own command. I disagreed and argued that the word THAT shows that God was speaking of this sin, not his command. The phrases, "neither came it into my mind" is connected to the next phrase "that they should do this abomination".

What say you?

I could be totally wrong on this..

My take is that God IS in control of the final results of ALL events, its just that some he determines and direct causes, other he allows/permits, but in ALL He works to bring His will and purpose to come to pass and be worked out...

And that Until Jesus returns, and God Direct rules Earth, NO one allowed to be doing ANYTHING anything against WILL of God, we are stuck in that place where God allows , in a limited way, some "free will" for satan and us....

 

[quantumfaith]

I reject the notion of God being the first or second cause of this atrocity committed by the Israelites. I also reject the notion that God knew nothing of it until it occured.

According to Jeremiah, God himself states that he did not command it. As to the phrase "neither did it enter my mind" I simply accept as emphasis that this was not His will, design, decree, desire et al. The Israelites sadly followed the practice of pagan cultures which surrounded and permeated them. Syncretism of pagan practices with the worship of YHWH is detested by Him.

 

[JesusFan]

I reject the notion of God being the first or second cause of this atrocity committed by the Israelites. I also reject the notion that God knew nothing of it until it occured.

According to Jeremiah, God himself states that he did not command it. As to the phrase "neither did it enter my mind" I simply accept as emphasis that this was not His will, design, decree, desire et al. The Israelites sadly followed the practice of pagan cultures which surrounded and permeated them. Syncretism of pagan practices with the worship of YHWH is detested by Him.

Think that God knew all that was going on at that time, and that He was allowing them to do their pagen practices and worship to false gods, but still was "directing" in background events to come together to get isreal to get back to being people of God that he intended them to be...

Also, to a degree God in OT did "limit" Himself to working in amd among them, as their Covenant relationship was based large part of obeying law of God... and the King was type of the nation before God, so when a good and godly King, nation was blessed, bad King, cursed by god and chaistised...

 

[Winman]

I reject the notion of God being the first or second cause of this atrocity committed by the Israelites.

I agree.

I also reject the notion that God knew nothing of it until it occured.

I do not know when God knew this, see my argument below.

According to Jeremiah, God himself states that he did not command it.

Yes. And aren't decrees commands?

As to the phrase "neither did it enter my mind" I simply accept as emphasis that this was not His will, design, decree, desire et al.

The problem with this explanation (for me) is that it argues God does not know how to properly express himself. This statement (to me) seems to say just what it says, that this sin never occurred to God. Perhaps I am wrong, but I believe God infinitely intelligent, and able to properly express himself without being misleading.

Obviously God knew of this sin, otherwise he could not speak of it. And God did allow it, although he pronounced severe judgment on the people for this sin. So it did not go unpunished.

The Israelites sadly followed the practice of pagan cultures which surrounded and permeated them. Syncretism of pagan practices with the worship of YHWH is detested by Him.

We are no better today. I can't help that believe some folks sacrificed their children not to worship their false god, but to rid themselves of responsibility.

 

[Winman]

I could be totally wrong on this..

My take is that God IS in control of the final results of ALL events, its just that some he determines and direct causes, other he allows/permits, but in ALL He works to bring His will and purpose to come to pass and be worked out...

I don't know that this is so, what did Jesus say?

Mat 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

Despite what others have implied, I am no Open Theist. I simply read scripture for what it says. And here Jesus said a sparrow cannot fall to the ground unless the Father allows it. He also said that the hairs of our head are all numbered. So God is absolutely in control.

And that Until Jesus returns, and God Direct rules Earth, NO one allowed to be doing ANYTHING anything against WILL of God, we are stuck in that place where God allows , in a limited way, some "free will" for satan and us....

We say that God allows sin, and sin certainly does occur. But isn't it necessary that God allow us to sin? How could he judge us as sinners if he did not allow us to sin?

You might rob a bank someday. God could kill you before you do that to prevent it. But can he judge you as a bank robber if you never actually robbed a bank?

There was a movie years ago with Sylvester Stallone. He went to the future. In the future, the police arrested people before they could commit a crime. Pretty wild. But there is an important moral here, can you arrest someone because they might potentially commit a crime? We all have the potential to do most anything. The law does not arrest and convict someone for their potential evil, in a sense the law itself is bound to let crime occur.

Do you follow what I am saying?

 

[jbh28]

God is not the author of sin.

 

[Winman]

God is not the author of sin.

Glad you agree, that is why I posted these verses, because the scriptures say this particular sin did not come into God's mind or heart. He never commanded it, so it cannot be decreed, can it?

That is the question I would like to ask you, did God decree that this sin in Jer. 7:31 take place?

 

[freeatlast]

In a thread that was closed, I posted three verses from Jeremiah that said the children of Judah were sacrificing their children to idols. God said he never commanded this sin, neither came it into his heart or mind.

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

Some here implied I was an Open Theist because I took this verse literally, that the sin of sacrificing their children did not come into God's mind or heart.

Here is what John Gill said of this verse, I am only including that part where he addressed "neither came it into my heart" for brevity.



Please note where I have highlighted in red where John Gill said that this sin was no so much as a thought of God's, never desired, and even less commanded by him.

So, how do those that believe God decrees/ordains all things that come to pass deal with Gill's interpretation (which I happen to agree with)?

In addition, God spoke similar in Jer 19:5 and Jer 32:35

Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

In the earlier thread, Havensdad argued that when God said, "neither came it into my mind" that he was referring to his own command. I disagreed and argued that the word THAT shows that God was speaking of this sin, not his command. The phrases, "neither came it into my mind" is connected to the next phrase "that they should do this abomination".

What say you?

The verse in question is trying to show that God had absolutely nothing to do with their sin. It is not suggesting He was ignorant of it however. He did not command it, He did not talk about it, and He did not even hold a thought about it. It was all their doing totally apart from God so they cannot point to Him as to why they did it.

 

[jbh28]

Glad you agree, that is why I posted these verses, because the scriptures say this particular sin did not come into God's mind or heart. He never commanded it, so it cannot be decreed, can it?

That is the question I would like to ask you, did God decree that this sin in Jer. 7:31 take place?

I didn't say that it wasn't decreed, I just said He wasn't the author of sin. That's what the passage is teaching.

 

[Benjamin]

God is not the author of sin.

Thank you for prioritizing that truth up front...:thumbsup:

 

[Winman]

I didn't say that it wasn't decreed, I just said He wasn't the author of sin. That's what the passage is teaching.

Well, I'm asking you, did God decree that this sin in Jer 7:31 would take place?

 

[Robert Snow]

Well, I'm asking you, did God decree that this sin in Jer 7:31 would take place?

How could it be decreed by God if it never even entered His mind?

 

[Winman]

How could it be decreed by God if it never even entered His mind?

How could it be a decree if he didn't command it? Isn't the definition of decree a royal order or command?

Pretty interesting, I had to search about ten commentaries before I could find anyone who would discuss this verse. Even ol' Matthew Henry completely skips over Gods statements that he did not command this sin and that it never came into his mind and heart.

So much for theologians. Obviously many do not like to deal with these verses. Check and you will see, most skip right over it.

Gotta give Gill credit, he called it like he saw it.

 

[jbh28]

How could it be decreed by God if it never even entered His mind?

Are you implying then that God didn't have knowledge of it?

 

[TCGreek]

Open theists are displaying desperation to use such as text as a proof text.

The verse is simply saying that God never granted his approval to such.

 

[Winman]

Are you implying then that God didn't have knowledge of it?

Why don't you answer the questions asked you before you ask a question? Reminds me of another frequent poster who uses this technique.

Did God decree this sin in Jer. 7:31 or not? A simple yes or no will do.

As far as God knowing, how could he speak of this sin if he did not know of it? Now, when he knew, I cannot say for certain.

 

[Winman]

Open theists are displaying desperation to use such as text as a proof text.

The verse is simply saying that God never granted his approval to such.

Is God unable to properly express himself? He said he didn't command this sin. But he said more, he said it did not come into his heart and mind.

I hardly think Gill was an Open Theist, but he came to the same interpretation as I did. And this interpretation is natural, not forced, God said it did not come into his heart or mind. That is very direct and simple language.

 

[TCGreek]

Is God unable to properly express himself? He said he didn't command this sin. But he said more, he said it did not come into his heart and mind.

I hardly think Gill was an Open Theist, but he came to the same interpretation as I did. And this interpretation is natural, not forced, God said it did not come into his heart or mind. That is very direct and simple language.

I have no trouble understanding the expression as referring to God not grant his approval.

By the way, Gill was just a mere mortal like you and me, not the touchstone of biblical interpretation. Keep that in mind.

 

[jbh28]

Why don't you answer the questions asked you before you ask a question? Reminds me of another frequent poster who uses this technique.

Did God decree this sin in Jer. 7:31 or not? A simple yes or no will do.

As far as God knowing, how could he speak of this sin if he did not know of it? Now, when he knew, I cannot say for certain.

I didn't know it was about the decrees of God. And my question was for Robert, though you are free to answer it. I'm going to use the answer in my response.