Tom Bryant
Well-Known Member
You are God's man 'on the scene'. Follow His leadership. Praying for you!
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The "Previous Pastor" won't leave..
- Thread starter MojoTurbo
- Start date
This is precisely why the church should be led by multiple, equal-authority elders; instead of a sole-authority pastor. No-one has the courage to do what is right. The men of the church should have removed him from fellowship & ended his pension before you ever arrived. He is living in willful, open sin & the church is allowing it. His actions, according to your word, has been ungodly & sinful. Would you allow any other person to teach there while living in such clear sin? I doubt it. It is this respect of persons that is your greatest enemy in this situation.
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The problem is the elder's are the leaders and their job desc clearly said they were in charge of the Sunday school classes long before I ever showed up. I think they were just afraid of rocking the boat. They didn't have any strong pastoral leadership before... and clearly this church is spiritually immature.
Mojo, these are my thoughts as a pastor's wife.
First, you've already said you wanted this guy gone before you would come. If you turn around and let him stay a while in order to "befriend" him or get to know his viewpoint better, you're already sending a mixed signal to the church. If I were a member there, I would expect you to follow through with removing him now that you've taken the position. You've already drawn a line in the sand, so to speak, and they are watching to see if you back down. If you do, you may never gain their respect and they will continue to follow the former pastor, who they look to as the stronger leader.
Second, my dh and I have learned the hard way that "letting the pastor take care of it" really means the other men are too wimpy to take a stand, and when the pastor DOES take a stand, they will back off and let him take all the heat alone. It's quite possible the other pastors who have left, have done so because they felt they had no support from the elders/other men.
Third, the longer you wait and let this drag on, the harder it will get. This former pastor has already tried to prevent you from coming. He will continue to work behind the scenes to undermine you in a tug-of-war for control. The sooner you remove him, the quicker I believe the healing will be for all parties. Letting this fester until he really shows himself is not going to do any of you any good.
I'm just a pastor's wife and that's just my $.02.
First, you've already said you wanted this guy gone before you would come. If you turn around and let him stay a while in order to "befriend" him or get to know his viewpoint better, you're already sending a mixed signal to the church. If I were a member there, I would expect you to follow through with removing him now that you've taken the position. You've already drawn a line in the sand, so to speak, and they are watching to see if you back down. If you do, you may never gain their respect and they will continue to follow the former pastor, who they look to as the stronger leader.
Second, my dh and I have learned the hard way that "letting the pastor take care of it" really means the other men are too wimpy to take a stand, and when the pastor DOES take a stand, they will back off and let him take all the heat alone. It's quite possible the other pastors who have left, have done so because they felt they had no support from the elders/other men.
Third, the longer you wait and let this drag on, the harder it will get. This former pastor has already tried to prevent you from coming. He will continue to work behind the scenes to undermine you in a tug-of-war for control. The sooner you remove him, the quicker I believe the healing will be for all parties. Letting this fester until he really shows himself is not going to do any of you any good.
I'm just a pastor's wife and that's just my $.02.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Sounds to me that there are enough people in the church that want to take care of this, of course, we get more info as this story evolves and becomes more elusive just as one provides some advice.
I think it's high time the church showed this fellow love. Tough love, as in church discipline is in order.
He knows he's in the wrong, so do the members. How long did Paul tarry about an adulterous member in Corinth?
- Peace
I think it's high time the church showed this fellow love. Tough love, as in church discipline is in order.
He knows he's in the wrong, so do the members. How long did Paul tarry about an adulterous member in Corinth?
- Peace
Tom Butler
New Member
Jim, I agree. Why do you think some former pastors don't see this wisdom? Why do they want to stick around? Any insights?
In my opinion, some want to hang in there so their former wisdom continues to control events.
I attended my local Anglican Church. I never pastored there, but did conduct a weekly Bible study and preached often on a Sunday. When they got a new pastor, fresh out of seminary, sat in a back pew quietly.
The young lad and I talked one day over a cup of coffee, and that is when he opened up to me what some people would say about his teaching and compared that to what I had or would say. In plain English, my very presence hindered his ministry. I can't leave town; this is my home. I did stop taking funerals and weddings, and stopped attending services for awhile. At the Corner Store, coffee house, I answered questions, but always added, what does "your" pastor say? He appreciated it and became more confident in himself. Now I can sit in the back pew and not be a problem.
Cheers,
Jim
I attended my local Anglican Church. I never pastored there, but did conduct a weekly Bible study and preached often on a Sunday. When they got a new pastor, fresh out of seminary, sat in a back pew quietly.
The young lad and I talked one day over a cup of coffee, and that is when he opened up to me what some people would say about his teaching and compared that to what I had or would say. In plain English, my very presence hindered his ministry. I can't leave town; this is my home. I did stop taking funerals and weddings, and stopped attending services for awhile. At the Corner Store, coffee house, I answered questions, but always added, what does "your" pastor say? He appreciated it and became more confident in himself. Now I can sit in the back pew and not be a problem.
Cheers,
Jim
Sound advice from everyone to be sure....
I don't think anyone is expecting me to kick him out. Nobody is waiting for that. This was more something that I discussed with the interim pastor and a few of the elders. They thought it was a good idea to remove him before I showed up and I agreed.
But this was before I met him....
It's not my position to size someone up or demand that they be kicked out without hearing their side. And in all honesty, I do feel for the guy... he lost his wife to a long bout with cancer and now just wants company. He's well into his eighties and I hear from lots of older people how pensions can be a mess to deal with. None of that is an excuse... just back story.
This is the only church in an 8 minute drive - and the next closest church is pastored by a man who is responsible for splitting our church. In order for this former pastor to "leave gracefully" and go to another church, would require him to make a serious effort to leave the community and home he has known for so long and carve out a whole another life.
We all have our sins and our hangups and I think I would be fine if he was content to sit in the back pew and be quiet. But the fact that he carries a title "pastor" in our church, receives a pension and teaches a class I think sends the wrong message to the community.
When I spoke with the interim (who has been a pastor longer than I) - the reason he didn't remove this man from his position was because the church was indifferent to it. Like a mole they had grown to accept it, even though they don't like it. None of them feel like they know the scriptures enough to contend with a "pastor."
My original plan was to have the interim and the elders sit down with the former pastor and ask that he remove himself from leadership until he could procure a marriage licence from the state.
I asked the former pastor why he never left, and it's strictly because he loves these people and he watched so many other pastors abuse them - that he was simply close by the way a parent doesn't want to leave their child with an abusive little league coach or swim instructor. My goal with meeting with him is to do the one thing that no other former pastor has done... talk to him, love him.
My hope is that I gain his trust, and his understanding, so that I when I do speak to him about this, I can do so with some authority in his life.
.................. but all that an aside.... you have most of the information. I am four weeks into my ministry now....
QUESTIONS: What should my action plan be? Goals to set? Typically as a new pastor you don't start firing staff your first month anyway. (do you?)
I have thought about talking to the wife, I mean why does she want to go to her husbands old church that he built with his former wife? But I think that's too "behind the back" i'd rather keep this between me and him.
The other part of me wants to educate the congregation so that when a decision is made, they are behind me.
I don't think anyone is expecting me to kick him out. Nobody is waiting for that. This was more something that I discussed with the interim pastor and a few of the elders. They thought it was a good idea to remove him before I showed up and I agreed.
But this was before I met him....
It's not my position to size someone up or demand that they be kicked out without hearing their side. And in all honesty, I do feel for the guy... he lost his wife to a long bout with cancer and now just wants company. He's well into his eighties and I hear from lots of older people how pensions can be a mess to deal with. None of that is an excuse... just back story.
This is the only church in an 8 minute drive - and the next closest church is pastored by a man who is responsible for splitting our church. In order for this former pastor to "leave gracefully" and go to another church, would require him to make a serious effort to leave the community and home he has known for so long and carve out a whole another life.
We all have our sins and our hangups and I think I would be fine if he was content to sit in the back pew and be quiet. But the fact that he carries a title "pastor" in our church, receives a pension and teaches a class I think sends the wrong message to the community.
When I spoke with the interim (who has been a pastor longer than I) - the reason he didn't remove this man from his position was because the church was indifferent to it. Like a mole they had grown to accept it, even though they don't like it. None of them feel like they know the scriptures enough to contend with a "pastor."
My original plan was to have the interim and the elders sit down with the former pastor and ask that he remove himself from leadership until he could procure a marriage licence from the state.
I asked the former pastor why he never left, and it's strictly because he loves these people and he watched so many other pastors abuse them - that he was simply close by the way a parent doesn't want to leave their child with an abusive little league coach or swim instructor. My goal with meeting with him is to do the one thing that no other former pastor has done... talk to him, love him.
My hope is that I gain his trust, and his understanding, so that I when I do speak to him about this, I can do so with some authority in his life.
.................. but all that an aside.... you have most of the information. I am four weeks into my ministry now....
QUESTIONS: What should my action plan be? Goals to set? Typically as a new pastor you don't start firing staff your first month anyway. (do you?)
I have thought about talking to the wife, I mean why does she want to go to her husbands old church that he built with his former wife? But I think that's too "behind the back" i'd rather keep this between me and him.
The other part of me wants to educate the congregation so that when a decision is made, they are behind me.
Well - left with only what you posted - I don't see a big issue, so long as he is not still trying to be the shepherd of the flock while retired.
But you indicate that there is "more"...so I wonder what that is.
I am blessed with a couple of retired/former pastors in the church I currently pastor, although none of them pastored this particular church. Still keeps me on my toes!
But you indicate that there is "more"...so I wonder what that is.
I am blessed with a couple of retired/former pastors in the church I currently pastor, although none of them pastored this particular church. Still keeps me on my toes!
OK - I'm late to this dance and missed the "rest of the story" post.
OK - so what does God's Word say about the situation this former pastor is living in? If not legally married, then he is living with a woman out of wedlock.
Their given reason for not getting "legitimately married" is so his wife can continue to collect alimony? Has this former pastor been married before? What are those circumstances (widower/divorced/etc.)?
It sounds to me like he wants to continue to be a "leader" in the congregation, without the responsibility to live as a Christian example/witness, and without the title. Not a good situation.
OK - so what does God's Word say about the situation this former pastor is living in? If not legally married, then he is living with a woman out of wedlock.
Their given reason for not getting "legitimately married" is so his wife can continue to collect alimony? Has this former pastor been married before? What are those circumstances (widower/divorced/etc.)?
It sounds to me like he wants to continue to be a "leader" in the congregation, without the responsibility to live as a Christian example/witness, and without the title. Not a good situation.
that's just it, they don't live together. And Im not even saying that they spend the night together at each other's houses. Both have been previously married - both are widdowers. The wife collects a pension (not alimony) which is sizable and she needs to live on for income.
They got married (in the eyes of the lord) because they both wanted to be able to say that they were married - AND so that when they went away together on trips - they could do - double occupancy.
But they both maintain separate home - separate accounts - separate families.
I have never spoken to the wife about what she thinks - or the kids, it's not my business and I don't want to go behind his back. I want everything to be up front and honest with him.
I would love him to stay and to be a resource and to retain his title as pastor emeritus. It bothers me that he teaches a class, has a title, and receives an on going pension (for over 13 years) and is maintaining this lifestyle.
the way I see it, I have options....
A direct meeting with him where I express my feelings in the matter; and give him a deadline/ultimatum.
1. Get legally married by the state and continue attending, teaching and retain his title. (best possible outcome)
2. He refuses to get legally married....
- he is asked to step down as a leader/sunday school teacher
- he is stripped of title 'pastor emeritus'
- he and his wife are asked to no longer attend our church
- his lifestyle choice is looked at as a break with his original covenant as pastor and his pension is revoked
It could be only one of those outcomes - or 2 or all 4.
My plan would be a second meeting as follow up with the board chair and then if a third follow up was needed- it would go to the church board as a vote.
I'm still in my first 100 day as pastor, so I am not in a hurry to swing the axe, which is why we are discussing it here. This is why I am seeking your counsel and gleaning your wisdom.
I don't believe there is any other information to share... it's all there in the discussion.
They got married (in the eyes of the lord) because they both wanted to be able to say that they were married - AND so that when they went away together on trips - they could do - double occupancy.
But they both maintain separate home - separate accounts - separate families.
I have never spoken to the wife about what she thinks - or the kids, it's not my business and I don't want to go behind his back. I want everything to be up front and honest with him.
I would love him to stay and to be a resource and to retain his title as pastor emeritus. It bothers me that he teaches a class, has a title, and receives an on going pension (for over 13 years) and is maintaining this lifestyle.
the way I see it, I have options....
A direct meeting with him where I express my feelings in the matter; and give him a deadline/ultimatum.
1. Get legally married by the state and continue attending, teaching and retain his title. (best possible outcome)
2. He refuses to get legally married....
- he is asked to step down as a leader/sunday school teacher
- he is stripped of title 'pastor emeritus'
- he and his wife are asked to no longer attend our church
- his lifestyle choice is looked at as a break with his original covenant as pastor and his pension is revoked
It could be only one of those outcomes - or 2 or all 4.
My plan would be a second meeting as follow up with the board chair and then if a third follow up was needed- it would go to the church board as a vote.
I'm still in my first 100 day as pastor, so I am not in a hurry to swing the axe, which is why we are discussing it here. This is why I am seeking your counsel and gleaning your wisdom.
I don't believe there is any other information to share... it's all there in the discussion.
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menageriekeeper
Active Member
I've stayed off this cause I'm not a pastor, but,
It seems the question comes down to: Is someone married in the eyes of God even if they aren't married in the eyes of the law?
We've had discussions on this subject in the past here on the BB. You could prob search the archives. (you because I can never get the search here to work for me) Or perhaps you could start a new thread just for opinions on that particular subject.
It seems the question comes down to: Is someone married in the eyes of God even if they aren't married in the eyes of the law?
We've had discussions on this subject in the past here on the BB. You could prob search the archives. (you because I can never get the search here to work for me) Or perhaps you could start a new thread just for opinions on that particular subject.
My Friends Vinny and Louie Can Help...
....I'll send them over as soon as you give me his name and address. They solve problems we can't solve; and I'm confident they can be of help with this pastor. :smilewinkgrin:
Actually, my first church had a similar situation, and the guy was nothing but a problem every time I turned around. He was forever calling special meetings to have the board talk to me about my sermon topics. He was the person people would call first when it came to sick folks needing a pastor visit, then he'd call me and tell me to drop what I was doing and get to the persons side.
He was the reason I left after one year. He was a micro manager before the word was even an acceptable term. :laugh:
I needed some breathing space, and felt so much better to be free of his constantly looking over my shoulders.
Too bad Vinny and Louie didn't really exist. I just may have called them up! :laugh:
....I'll send them over as soon as you give me his name and address. They solve problems we can't solve; and I'm confident they can be of help with this pastor. :smilewinkgrin:
Actually, my first church had a similar situation, and the guy was nothing but a problem every time I turned around. He was forever calling special meetings to have the board talk to me about my sermon topics. He was the person people would call first when it came to sick folks needing a pastor visit, then he'd call me and tell me to drop what I was doing and get to the persons side.
He was the reason I left after one year. He was a micro manager before the word was even an acceptable term. :laugh:
I needed some breathing space, and felt so much better to be free of his constantly looking over my shoulders.
Too bad Vinny and Louie didn't really exist. I just may have called them up! :laugh:
Of course someone is married in the eyes of God through a Christian service. The very first night the couple goes home - they are married - despite the fact that the paperwork is not recorded.
No, the question is - should a pastor receive a title "Pastor Emeritus," be allowed to teach a class and still qualify for a "lifetime pension" (when I can't even afford any new staff) when they are living a life of hypocrisy,
1. saying that they are married to friends and church, but
2. telling the state that his is not married...
Presenting two sides of himself... is the definition of hypocrisy.
If he believes he is married, then he is lying to the state and is living a fraudulent lifestyle so that his wife can keep her pension.
If he doesn't believe he is married, then he is lying to friends and family.
After my grace period at this church, I feel this situation has to be rectified. Not because I want to throw my weight around, but because of the standard this sets for leadership. Not to mention what we believe about Christian marriage.
No, the question is - should a pastor receive a title "Pastor Emeritus," be allowed to teach a class and still qualify for a "lifetime pension" (when I can't even afford any new staff) when they are living a life of hypocrisy,
1. saying that they are married to friends and church, but
2. telling the state that his is not married...
Presenting two sides of himself... is the definition of hypocrisy.
If he believes he is married, then he is lying to the state and is living a fraudulent lifestyle so that his wife can keep her pension.
If he doesn't believe he is married, then he is lying to friends and family.
After my grace period at this church, I feel this situation has to be rectified. Not because I want to throw my weight around, but because of the standard this sets for leadership. Not to mention what we believe about Christian marriage.
Crucified in Christ
New Member
David,
These are the reasons that I also would feel something had to be done.
I wonder how the Pastor Imeritus would feel about a young couple in the church living together without officially being married...would he claim their "feeling of being married" legit? I am just curious.
oh he would not, he told me that he was "probably being selfish" but this was his "reward" for standing by his wife faithfully all the years through her cancer.
I recently heard that if we tried to take away his lifetime pension, he would take us to court, even though the agreement only exists in church board minutes. No contract - no signatures at all.
I'd love to think that this will resolve itself..... but
Not gonna happen unless God strikes him with an illness or death, and even if that happens, you still may have to deal with the "wife" wanting his pension!
Unfortunately, as a corporation, the church's board minutes are legally binding.
But is there anything to stop the church from changing the decision?
Was there ever an actual agreement for "retirement pay"
Anotherwards - in legal terms - was there consideration?
You might want to check with a lawyer - a good organization would be the CHRISTIAN LAW ASSOCIATION