Can a man keep the law?

[Winman]

Non-Cals often argue that God would not require of man what he is not able to do, such as believe. Non-Cals argue it would be unjust for God to punish a man for unbelief if it were impossible for him to do so.

Calvinists often respond that God gave man the law and it is impossible for man to keep the law, therefore it is not unjust for God to demand from a man what he is not able to do.

The question is, can man keep the law? Is he able? The scriptures say YES!

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

The scriptures say that Zacharias and his wife walked in ALL the commandments and ordinances of the Lord BLAMELESS.

I am not saying that Zacharias was not a sinner. In fact, we see in this story that Zacharias did not at first believe God's promise and was struck dumb, unable to speak because he did not believe.

Nevertheless, concerning the commandments and ordinances of God, the scriptures themselves say Zacharias AND his wife kept ALL of them BLAMELESS.

So, is it really true that it is impossible for man to obey God's laws?

 

[jbh28]

The scriptures say that Zacharias and his wife walked in ALL the commandments and ordinances of the Lord BLAMELESS.

I am not saying that Zacharias was not a sinner.
So, is it really true that it is impossible for man to obey God's laws?

If he was a sinner, then he broke God's law.

 

[preacher4truth]

Non-Cals often argue that God would not require of man what he is not able to do, such as believe. Non-Cals argue it would be unjust for God to punish a man for unbelief if it were impossible for him to do so.

Calvinists often respond that God gave man the law and it is impossible for man to keep the law, therefore it is not unjust for God to demand from a man what he is not able to do.

The question is, can man keep the law? Is he able? The scriptures say yes!

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

The scriptures say that Zacharias and his wife walked in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

I am not saying that Zacharias was not a sinner. In fact, we see in this story that Zacharias did not at first believe God's promise and was struck dumb, unable to speak because he did not believe.

Nevertheless, concerning the commandments and ordinances of God, the scriptures themselves say Zacharias and his wife kept all of them blameless.

So, is it really true that it is impossible for man to obey God's laws?

No, it's not true, except in the world of Winmans misunderstanding.

More error on your part. So concerning the commandments and ordinances of God Zacharias and his wife kept all of them blameless?

What does this mean Winman? This blameless? Does it mean they never broke a commandment?

The glaringly obvious thing we get from you Winman? MAN MAN MAN MAN MAN MAN MAN MAN and his abilities.

This reminds me of the Order of Demolay, the Masonic Lodge, and the RCC.

 

[preacher4truth]

If he was a sinner, then he broke God's law.

True.

Only One kept the Law.

He'll just run back to "I never said he was not a sinner."

Then back to "they kept the Law, blameless." It's all double-talk.

Back and forth, back and forth.

 

[Winman]

If he was a sinner, then he broke God's law.

Agreed, but the scriptures themselves say he walked in ALL the commandments and ordinances of God BLAMELESS. He didn't just do some of the commandments and ordinances, he did them ALL. And he was BLAMELESS, without fault.

How does a Calvinist account for this? This was before the Holy Spirit was given to believers (John 7:39).

So, do the scriptures really say it is impossible for a man to keep the law?

This question is not about earning salvation in case someone like P4T falsely accuses me. No man can earn his salvation through works.

This thread and this question is about Total Inability.

 

[Winman]

No, it's not true, except in the world of Winmans misunderstanding.

More error on your part. So concerning the commandments and ordinances of God Zacharias and his wife kept all of them blameless?

What does this mean Winman? This blameless? Does it mean they never broke a commandment?

The glaringly obvious thing we get from you Winman? MAN MAN MAN MAN MAN MAN MAN MAN and his abilities.

This reminds me of the Order of Demolay, the Masonic Lodge, and the RCC.

You tell me, I looked up the word blameless in Strongs and it said "free from fault or defect".

So, if the scriptures are not saying Zacharias and his wife walked in the commandments and ordinances of God free from fault or defect, just what are they saying?

Are the scriptures actually saying he was sinning here? Please explain, as you do not believe me capable of understanding simple scripture.

 

[jbh28]

Agreed, but the scriptures themselves say he walked in ALL the commandments and ordinances of God BLAMELESS. He didn't just do some of the commandments and ordinances, he did them ALL. And he was BLAMELESS, without fault.

How does a Calvinist account for this? This was before the Holy Spirit was given to believers (John 7:39).

So, do the scriptures really say it is impossible for a man to keep the law?

This question is not about earning salvation in case someone like P4T falsely accuses me. No man can earn his salvation through works.

This thread and this question is about Total Inability.

He sinned, he broke the law. If he didn't break the law, he wasn't a sinner.

 

[preacher4truth]

You tell me, I looked up the word blameless in Strongs and it said "free from fault or defect".

So, if the scriptures are not saying Zacharias and his wife walked in the commandments and ordinances of God free from fault or defect, just what are they saying?

Are the scriptures actually saying he was sinning here? Please explain, as you do not believe me capable of understanding simple scripture.

The passage is saying what you want them to say.

Then Zachariah, his wife, and Jesus according to you all kept the Law. And so did Paul. He also was blameless.

But this is contrary to dogmatic truth taught throughout the Scriptures. But that hasn't mattered to you in the past.

Sometimes it takes more than a Strongs. You know, I actually feel bad for you? You tell me the JW's enjoy talking to you, or like, in the past, that you spend time with them or whatever. Now I know why. They also employ proof-texting/Bible is "simple" methodology, and contort passages as do you here.

Your misunderstanding right here is scary. You show a clear lack of understanding much theology simply in this one thread alone. But this is typical of you, attempting to undo dogma with passages you don't understand at all.

 

[Winman]

He sinned, he broke the law. If he didn't break the law, he wasn't a sinner.

I agreed from the OP he sinned, he did not believe God's promise at first.

That is not the question. The question is, was he able to perform God's commandments and ordinances. This is a question about ability.

Is it really true that it is impossible for a man to obey God's commands?

I am not asking if a man always keeps Gods commands, all men are sinners. Do not deflect, that is not the question. The question is whether man is ABLE to keep God's commands?

 

[preacher4truth]

Now he wants to turn the thread into total ability, not keeping the law?

Not surprised here.

 

[Dr. Bob]

The issue is NOT keeping a list of do's and dont's. It is a matter of the heart.

When the young man came to Jesus asking what he was to do and Jesus had him list xyz, he said he had always kept them. Jesus doesn't yell, "Liar!" at him; he probably had kept the list.

But his heart had other issues not spelled out in the list of do's and dont's. Jesus nailed one - his covetous/position-oriented life - and the man walk away.

Jesus summed it up as a matter of the heart.
Matthew 15:7-9 Hypocrites! Isaiah prophesied accurately about you when he said: “‘These people honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. They give Me empty worship, teaching as [God’s] doctrines the standards of men.’”

 

[Winman]

Now he wants to turn the thread into total ability, not keeping the law?

Not surprised here.

Give me a break, I started this thread. Don't you think I know why I posted this scripture? I know exactly why I posted this scripture and why. I am trying to show from scripture that Total Inability is a false doctrine.

What did I say in the OP?

The question is, can man keep the law? Is he able? The scriptures say YES!

If you can't be honest and accurately represent what people say, you should not participate on this board. It is one thing to disagree with folks, it is quite another to twist and misrepresent what people say.

 

[Winman]

Let me ask you a question P4T, you look like a healthy young fellow, do you think that you are ABLE to climb Mt. Everest?

Me, I think I could have easily when I was a young man, I was very active in many sports and in terrific shape. Now, I would probably have a heart attack half the way up (if not sooner).

I would bet you believe you could climb Mt. Everest, you have the ABILITY to do it.

But I bet you have never done it. That is another issue altogether. Just because you have never done something like climb Mt. Everest does not prove you are unable to. And just because men sin does not mean they cannot obey God's laws.

The scriptures themselves actually say not only Zacharias, but his wife Elisabeth both walked in ALL the commandments and ordinances (not just some) BLAMELESS (without fault).

So, my question is whether man is ABLE to keep God's laws, not IF he will do so.

 

[Winman]

The issue is NOT keeping a list of do's and dont's. It is a matter of the heart.

When the young man came to Jesus asking what he was to do and Jesus had him list xyz, he said he had always kept them. Jesus doesn't yell, "Liar!" at him; he probably had kept the list.

But his heart had other issues not spelled out in the list of do's and dont's. Jesus nailed one - his covetous/position-oriented life - and the man walk away.

Jesus summed it up as a matter of the heart.
Matthew 15:7-9 Hypocrites! Isaiah prophesied accurately about you when he said: “‘These people honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. They give Me empty worship, teaching as [God’s] doctrines the standards of men.’”

Actually, the scriptures say Jesus loved this young man. And Jesus did not deny that this young man had kept the commandments. What he lacked was faith.

Mark 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Jesus didn't deny that this young man was diligent to obey God's laws. But he lacked faith in God, he trusted in riches. Jesus promised if he would give up all his possessions and come follow him he would have greater treasure in heaven. This young man was not willing to do that. He did not trust Jesus's promise of a greater reward if he gave up his riches.

But he actually did keep the commandments.

This thread is not about whether any man keeps all of God's commandments, although I can see all you Calvinists will try to steer the conversation that direction. This thread is about ABILITY.

If you cannot respond to whether man has ability, then stay out of the conversation and don't attempt to deflect.

 

[preacher4truth]

The issue is NOT keeping a list of do's and dont's. It is a matter of the heart.

When the young man came to Jesus asking what he was to do and Jesus had him list xyz, he said he had always kept them. Jesus doesn't yell, "Liar!" at him; he probably had kept the list.

But his heart had other issues not spelled out in the list of do's and dont's. Jesus nailed one - his covetous/position-oriented life - and the man walk away.

Jesus summed it up as a matter of the heart.
Matthew 15:7-9 Hypocrites! Isaiah prophesied accurately about you when he said: “‘These people honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. They give Me empty worship, teaching as [God’s] doctrines the standards of men.’”

I think he lied. In fact, I am certain of it, which showed the heart problem in itself: inability to keep the Law.

Jesus exposed this.

He broke the 10th command, because he was covetous, as Jesus showed him, so he in fact did not keep the Law. Then he also broke the 9th, for he had just lied. Logical conclusion? He broke all of the Law by offending in one, each commandment, one through ten, broken, and all the rest of the OT Law also.

The rich young ruler? Guilty as charged. And I believe personally he knew this to be true within his own heart. Kept the law since his youth up? Not at all, and not even close, and he knew it. He plainly lied here.

He shows the heart problem of all mankind. "For all have sinned and come short of Gods glory." Romans 3:23.

Erwin Lutzer had an excellent message on the rich young ruler a while back, and how he deceived his own self, and had not kept the Law as he laid claim. Jesus had compassion on him, for He wished to show him where he had broken this Law not designed to save, but to expose our own sinful heart, and that we cannot do it.

 

[Winman]

I think he lied. In fact, I am certain of it, which showed the heart problem in itself: inability to keep the Law.

Jesus exposed this.

He broke the 10th command, because he was covetous, as Jesus showed him, so he in fact did not keep the Law. Then he also broke the 9th, for he had just lied. Logical conclusion? He broke all of the Law by offending in one, each commandment, one through ten, broken, and all the rest of the OT Law also.

The rich young ruler? Guilty as charged. And I believe personally he knew this to be true within his own heart. Kept the law since his youth up? Not at all, and not even close, and he knew it. He plainly lied here.

He shows the heart problem of all mankind. "For all have sinned and come short of Gods glory." Romans 3:23.

Erwin Lutzer had an excellent message on the rich young ruler a while back, and how he deceived his own self, and had not kept the Law as he laid claim. Jesus had compassion on him, for He wished to show him where he had broken this Law not designed to save, but to expose our own sinful heart, and that we cannot do it.

You can speculate about the young rich ruler all you want, but you cannot speculate about Zacharias and Elisabeth, God's word says they walked in all the commandments and ordinances of God blameless.

You say I misinterpret Luke 1:5-6, then please explain what these verses are saying.

 

[Robert Snow]

You can speculate about the young rich ruler all you want, but you cannot speculate about Zacharias and Elisabeth, God's word says they walked in all the commandments and ordinances of God blameless.

You say I misinterpret Luke 1:5-6, then please explain what these verses are saying.

Why is it, when you simply quote scripture, P4t gets so upset? You would think, if you are truly as incompetent as he obviously thinks, he would show the proper interpretation of the bible verses you post. Maybe he is just upset that you show the incompetence of his own belief system, and he is unable to respond scripturally.

 

[freeatlast]

It is not only possible to keep the commandments but if a person claims to be saved and is not keeping them he is a liar and the truth is not in him 1john 2:4.

 

[freeatlast]

The issue is NOT keeping a list of do's and dont's. It is a matter of the heart.

When the young man came to Jesus asking what he was to do and Jesus had him list xyz, he said he had always kept them. Jesus doesn't yell, "Liar!" at him; he probably had kept the list.

But his heart had other issues not spelled out in the list of do's and dont's. Jesus nailed one - his covetous/position-oriented life - and the man walk away.

Jesus summed it up as a matter of the heart.
Matthew 15:7-9 Hypocrites! Isaiah prophesied accurately about you when he said: “‘These people honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. They give Me empty worship, teaching as [God’s] doctrines the standards of men.’”

Yes I agree, but also true is if the person is not also keeping the written commands they show that their heart is no right as well.

 

[glfredrick]

Agreed, but the scriptures themselves say he walked in ALL the commandments and ordinances of God BLAMELESS. He didn't just do some of the commandments and ordinances, he did them ALL. And he was BLAMELESS, without fault.

How does a Calvinist account for this? This was before the Holy Spirit was given to believers (John 7:39).

So, do the scriptures really say it is impossible for a man to keep the law?

This question is not about earning salvation in case someone like P4T falsely accuses me. No man can earn his salvation through works.

This thread and this question is about Total Inability.

How does a Calvinist account for this? Simply with the NT. Keeping all the Law is not enough for salvation, as salvation IS NOT BASED ON WORKS.

Any other questions? :laugh: