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Can a man keep the law?

Winman

Active Member
How does a Calvinist account for this? Simply with the NT. Keeping all the Law is not enough for salvation, as salvation IS NOT BASED ON WORKS.

Any other questions? :laugh:

Yet another attempt to deflect, this thread is not about salvation, it is about ability. Calvinists say it is impossible for man to obey God, but the scriptures say Zacharias and Elisabeth walked in ALL the commandments and ordinances of the Lord BLAMELESS.

How could they do that if it is impossible?
 

jbh28

Active Member
Yet another attempt to deflect, this thread is not about salvation, it is about ability. Calvinists say it is impossible for man to obey God, but the scriptures say Zacharias and Elisabeth walked in ALL the commandments and ordinances of the Lord BLAMELESS.

How could they do that if it is impossible?

I don't know of any Calvinist that would say it's impossible for an unbeliever to obey God.
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
Why is it, when you simply quote scripture, P4t gets so upset? You would think, if you are truly as incompetent as he obviously thinks, he would show the proper interpretation of the bible verses you post. Maybe he is just upset that you show the incompetence of his own belief system, and he is unable to respond scripturally.

LOL! Hilarious. Bob, if you look above, you'll see that I gave a proper scriptural response. Cutting and pasting of scripture doesn't make one correct.

It's not the Scriptures that winman posts that are irritating, it's his erroneous interpretations of them. He has serious and sundry fallacious interpretations. This is what happens when one thinks they know the Bible, he is a perfect example of proof-texting fallacies; he knows what several passages say, and that is where it ends.

Interesting thing Bob? I rarely see you contribute positively, nor do I see you use Scriptures, maybe on very rare occasion, nor do you have any theological contributions whatsoever.
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
No, man cannot keep the law.

The law itself bears witness to that fact because it is a sacrificial system.

To be "blameless" meant Zecharias and Elizabeth maintained fellowship with God for their shortcomings through the sacrificial ordinances required by the law.

One of the shortcomings of Zecharias is evident in that he was struck dumb because of his lack of faith concerning Elizabeth's pregnancy.

Today of course it is not only morally impossible to keep the law but practically as well (if it were required today) seeing that there is no temple or sacerdotal levitical priesthood in Jerusalem.

HankD
 

freeatlast

New Member
No, man cannot keep the law.

The law itself bears witness to that fact because it is a sacrificial system.

To be "blameless" meant Zecharias and Elizabeth maintained fellowship with God for their shortcomings through the sacrificial ordinances required by the law.

One of the shortcomings of Zecharias is evident in that he was struck dumb because of his lack of faith concerning Elizabeth's pregnancy.

Today of course it is not only morally impossible to keep the law but practically as well (if it were required today) seeing that there is no temple or sacerdotal levitical priesthood in Jerusalem.

HankD

Can you give scriptural reference that says it is impossible to keep the law? Also which part of it could not be kept?
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
No, man cannot keep the law.

The law itself bears witness to that fact because it is a sacrificial system.

To be "blameless" meant Zecharias and Elizabeth maintained fellowship with God for their shortcomings through the sacrificial ordinances required by the law.

One of the shortcomings of Zecharias is evident in that he was struck dumb because of his lack of faith concerning Elizabeth's pregnancy.

Today of course it is not only morally impossible to keep the law but practically as well (if it were required today) seeing that there is no temple or sacerdotal levitical priesthood in Jerusalem.

HankD

Yes. The misunderstanding here is in the word "keep." In that sense only One has ever kept the Law perfectly.
 

glfredrick

New Member
Yet another attempt to deflect, this thread is not about salvation, it is about ability. Calvinists say it is impossible for man to obey God, but the scriptures say Zacharias and Elisabeth walked in ALL the commandments and ordinances of the Lord BLAMELESS.

How could they do that if it is impossible?

This is the question you posed:

Originally Posted by Winman Agreed, but the scriptures themselves say he walked in ALL the commandments and ordinances of God BLAMELESS. He didn't just do some of the commandments and ordinances, he did them ALL. And he was BLAMELESS, without fault.

How does a Calvinist account for this? This was before the Holy Spirit was given to believers (John 7:39).

So, do the scriptures really say it is impossible for a man to keep the law?

This question is not about earning salvation in case someone like P4T falsely accuses me. No man can earn his salvation through works.

This thread and this question is about Total Inability.

Let's say, for the sake of argument that we have an ability to keep the Law. But, even if we DID keep the Law perfectly, it STILL would not be salvific, because we ARE NOT SAVED BY WORKS, so I am unsure as to what your larger point would be.

Are you, once again, headed toward a Pelagian understanding of our own efforts to come to Christ?

Note:

No, the use of the term "Pelagian" is not intended to be a pejorative term to shut down the conversation -- if one goes in the direction of a human-centered salvation experience, then one gets to own the fact that he or she is indeed headed in a Pelagian direction; for neither Arminianism, nor Calvinism, nor the Baptist "no-name" theology stipulates that WE are able to come to Christ apart from the initial work of God.
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
This is the question you posed:

Let's say, for the sake of argument that we have an ability to keep the Law. But, even if we DID keep the Law perfectly, it STILL would not be salvific, because we ARE NOT SAVED BY WORKS, so I am unsure as to what your larger point would be.

Are you, once again, headed toward a Pelagian understanding of our own efforts to come to Christ?

Note:

No, the use of the term "Pelagian" is not intended to be a pejorative term to shut down the conversation -- if one goes in the direction of a human-centered salvation experience, then one gets to own the fact that he or she is indeed headed in a Pelagian direction; for neither Arminianism, nor Calvinism, nor the Baptist "no-name" theology stipulates that WE are able to come to Christ apart from the initial work of God.

Part of the entire issue here lies within this: Winman uses this incident, and the incident of Cornelius, underlining in the passages emphatically how that when Cornelius practiced his religion, that he found favor with God/acceptance, or what have you. It's an "aha, see!" moment for him. What is odd is that Peter stated emphatically himself, "that God is no respecter of persons."

Winman has been on this MAN! MAN! MAN! and an over-exalted capability of man kick for a long while now. One thread he argued against Dr. Bob saying concerning salvation we can do no good. Winman rebutts that with saying Dr, Bob is incorrect, using Cornelius as an example to prove one can. What does that tell us?

He has used these things, as also in this thread, as fighting against "unconditionally accepted, elected," &c, something he with indignation does not accept, as he has plainly been at warfare with "unconditional election," this being a well know fact. He also vehemenently fights against the Romans 3 indictment upon mankind, Colossians and Ephesians indictments upon lost mankind, and the true Biblical judgment upon lost man, and uses proof-texts such as have been noted to bolster this error he affirms and holds to; that man is/does good, against inability, and unconditional acceptance/election.

One thing I notice and get out of all of this is that there are two theological views and divisions here: 1) Some fighting for man and mans ability, relentlessly, and; 2) Some defending Gods glory and Sovereignty, His Purpose in election, and His choosing, and all of the "Omnis" related to Him, relentlessly.

I'm of the latter in my apologetics, because it is Scriptural and holds the correct view of mankind and of the Person of God. Jesus Christ knew what was in man. It wasn't good.


- Peace
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Winman

Active Member
No, man cannot keep the law.

The law itself bears witness to that fact because it is a sacrificial system.

To be "blameless" meant Zecharias and Elizabeth maintained fellowship with God for their shortcomings through the sacrificial ordinances required by the law.

One of the shortcomings of Zecharias is evident in that he was struck dumb because of his lack of faith concerning Elizabeth's pregnancy.

Today of course it is not only morally impossible to keep the law but practically as well (if it were required today) seeing that there is no temple or sacerdotal levitical priesthood in Jerusalem.

HankD

I agree with you 100% here, but that is the point, man COULD maintain a proper relationship with God as Zacharias proves. Calvinism says a man can do no such thing. Cain could have given a proper sacrifice and God said he would have been accepted if he did so. The fact that he did not does not prove he could not as Zacharias and Elisabeth proves.

Calvinism falsely argues that a man CANNOT obey God as he is enslaved by his sinful nature. It is not that man cannot, it is that some WILL NOT. That is a very different thing.
 

glfredrick

New Member
I agree with you 100% here, but that is the point, man COULD maintain a proper relationship with God as Zacharias proves. Calvinism says a man can do no such thing. Cain could have given a proper sacrifice and God said he would have been accepted if he did so. The fact that he did not does not prove he could not as Zacharias and Elisabeth proves.

Calvinism falsely argues that a man CANNOT obey God as he is enslaved by his sinful nature. It is not that man cannot, it is that some WILL NOT. That is a very different thing.

Calvinism is correct in its assumption that man cannot please God by living a righteous life.

It is also correct in assuming that man cannot obey God ENOUGH to provide salvation. Even on our best day (and in EVERY case where the Scriptures say that someone actually lived a righteous life) the persons so doing STILL did not measure up to God's PERFECT expectations, for at some point their hearts were proven to be set apart from God by some tangible demonstration OF God, such as the silencing of Zacharias or the turning away of the rich young ruler. You major on one set of words, but miss the larger picture, i.e, that one CANNOT work their way to God, no matter how hard they try, nor how "righteous" they are.

I would assume that you know all this, but are in fact arguing AGAINST Calvinism, not FOR the ability of a person to obey God. We all see through your argument, which is why you are so unhappy with our answers.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Non-Cals often argue that God would not require of man what he is not able to do, such as believe. Non-Cals argue it would be unjust for God to punish a man for unbelief if it were impossible for him to do so.

Calvinists often respond that God gave man the law and it is impossible for man to keep the law, therefore it is not unjust for God to demand from a man what he is not able to do.

The question is, can man keep the law? Is he able? The scriptures say YES!

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

The scriptures say that Zacharias and his wife walked in ALL the commandments and ordinances of the Lord BLAMELESS.

I am not saying that Zacharias was not a sinner. In fact, we see in this story that Zacharias did not at first believe God's promise and was struck dumb, unable to speak because he did not believe.

Nevertheless, concerning the commandments and ordinances of God, the scriptures themselves say Zacharias AND his wife kept ALL of them BLAMELESS.

So, is it really true that it is impossible for man to obey God's laws?

per Apostle paul himself...

the law of God IS perfect, but CANNOT save ANy of us, as we are ALL sinful and weak in the Flesh...

That is why Jesus HAD to come and die for our atonement and pay for our sins, as He could and DID completely fulfill requirements of the law on our behalf!

Bible CLEAR that All of us fall short of glory of God, impossible in our flesh to keep the law totally, as God requires for salvation!
 

freeatlast

New Member
per Apostle paul himself...

the law of God IS perfect, but CANNOT save ANy of us, as we are ALL sinful and weak in the Flesh...

That is why Jesus HAD to come and die for our atonement and pay for our sins, as He could and DID completely fulfill requirements of the law on our behalf!

Bible CLEAR that All of us fall short of glory of God, impossible in our flesh to keep the law totally, as God requires for salvation!

No it never suggests impossibility, just that no one does it. That is why sin is so sinfull.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
It is not only possible to keep the commandments but if a person claims to be saved and is not keeping them he is a liar and the truth is not in him 1john 2:4.

WHy do we need to keep perfectly the Commandment, since jesus already fufilled them perfectly by His life and death?

HOW much do we have to keep the law and ge really saved?

PART? james says have to keep ALL of it to be saved!
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
No it never suggests impossibility, just that no one does it. That is why sin is so sinfull.

nope...

Bible states clearly NONE of us could or can, and that is why jesus HAD to come to die for us and provide for us what the law cannot, being saved!
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Calvinism is correct in its assumption that man cannot please God by living a righteous life.

It is also correct in assuming that man cannot obey God ENOUGH to provide salvation. Even on our best day (and in EVERY case where the Scriptures say that someone actually lived a righteous life) the persons so doing STILL did not measure up to God's PERFECT expectations, for at some point their hearts were proven to be set apart from God by some tangible demonstration OF God, such as the silencing of Zacharias or the turning away of the rich young ruler. You major on one set of words, but miss the larger picture, i.e, that one CANNOT work their way to God, no matter how hard they try, nor how "righteous" they are.

I would assume that you know all this, but are in fact arguing AGAINST Calvinism, not FOR the ability of a person to obey God. We all see through your argument, which is why you are so unhappy with our answers.


The Apostle paul so clear in this!

NONE are even able to be saved by keeping Law, as while it is perfect, we are sinful flesh that cannot submit to it and obey it totally...

What the Law could not do with inful men, grace of God in jesus death on Cross could and did!
 

freeatlast

New Member
nope...

Bible states clearly NONE of us could or can, and that is why jesus HAD to come to die for us and provide for us what the law cannot, being saved!


Stating that the bible says something does not make it so. Please give scripture reference that says we cannot keep the law. Even so there was a time with no law and men did not sin in as those under the law but they were still condemned.
 

Winman

Active Member
No it never suggests impossibility, just that no one does it. That is why sin is so sinfull.

Exactly. The Calvinists here continually deflect the subject of the thread. I never said any man can earn salvation and they know it.

This thread is about having the ability to obey God. Calvinism teaches that man is unable to obey God as it is impossible for a man to fly like a bird of his own ability.

A man cannot fly of his own ability like a bird, but man can obey God's laws.

Tell me, do you HAVE to lie? Do you HAVE to steal?
 
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