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The Contextual Israel in Romans 11:26

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Dr. Walter, Aug 2, 2011.

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  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    dw

    God's People are only those He foreknows, thats what paul is declaring in Rom 11:1-2

    1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

    2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

    The foreknew People are limited to those who Who have been predestinated to be conform to the Image of Christ. Rom 8:29-30

    29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    Now, Abraham's Chidren Israel that consisteh only in the Flesh, they are not the Children of God nor the Children of Promise, not one Promise belongs to them. Rom 9:8

    8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
     
    #21 savedbymercy, Aug 13, 2011
  2. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    dhk

    No it was not, It is the Spiritual Remnant within the nation. The Chosen nation of Israel received the promises, the rest were blinded. Rom 11:

    7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

    Now, If the Election obtained it, the word election here means the Chosen, then the rest which were blinded called Israel, could not have been the Elect or the Chosen..Pretty simple !
     
    #22 savedbymercy, Aug 13, 2011
  3. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    Your ASSUMPTION is that there is no future ETHNIC Israel as a NATION that will be TWICE BORN and therefore foreknown according to God's purpose of election and yet that is the very argument Paul is presenting.

    Your ASSUMPTION defies the very words used by Paul in verse 1 that defines the character of the Israel under consideration and those words define that character as:

    1. "tribe of Benjamin"
    2. "seed of Abraham"
    3. "an Israelite"

    There is no GENTILE words to characterize the Israel under consideration and that is exactly the character of the Israel you want to INJECT into this text.

    Again, what TRIBE of Israel are you?



    1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
     
    #23 Dr. Walter, Aug 13, 2011
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  4. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    What is "pretty simple" is that you are not qualified or capable to do exposition of a context nor do you try.

    Note His argument! He is opposing the idea that ETHNIC ISRAEL has been completely rejected by God. The "remnant" response to this argument is very very simple. So simple you trip over it. ETHNIC ISRAEL has rebelled against God in the past just as they were doing presently at the time Paul penned these words. The "remnant" in the PAST was proof that God NEVER completely rejected ETHNIC Israel in the PAST and the present "remnant" is proof that God has still not completely rejected ETHNIC ISRAEL.

    Can you read and understand the following words:

    1 ¶ I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

    11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid:

    Now, put your thinking cap on and think! What Israel has "stumbled"?? Is it your kind of Israel consisting of gentile believers or is it ETHNIC ISRAEL as described by Paul in verse 1 - the kind that has a "tribe" named "Benjamin" in it? Which is the "seed of Abraham" and which is an "Israelite"???????? Which Israel has "stumbled" as described in verses 3-10 - your kind of Israel or the ETHNIC ISRAEL as a nation???? It is the one that "stumbled" that "should not fall" completely! Did your kind of Israel "stumble" in the stumbling manner described by Paul in verses 3-10????????????????? Think about it! It is not the "remnant" that stumbled!

    Which Israel has "stumbled"????? It is the SAME kind of Israel in verse 11 as in verse 1 as both verses conclude "God forbid" and both refer to the SAME KIND OF ISRAEL -the kind that "stumbled." Look at the nature of the stumbling described in verses 2-10!!!!!! Your kind of Israel NEVER has and NEVER will "stumble" as described in those verses. There is only one kind of Israel that has "stumbled" as described in those verses, - ETHNIC ISRAEL AS A NATION and that Israel Paul denies vehemnently shall ever permenantly "fall" because of God's future purpose according to election of grace.
     
    #24 Dr. Walter, Aug 13, 2011
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  5. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    1 ¶ I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

    There is a question "Hath God cast away his people"
    There is an answer "God forbid"
    There is a definition of "his people" - "Israelite...seed of Abraham...tribe of benjamin."

    Now, my question to you is what sense would it make for Paul to ask "Hath God cast away his REMNANT"????? That is exactly how you are interpreting "his people."

    1. Why would anyone ask if God cast away his "remnant"???

    2. Does the example provided by Paul ask if God cast away his remnant or is it an intercession "against Israel" arguing that God should cast away ETHNIC NATIONAL ISRAEL?????

    3. Is not God's response to Elijahs intecession AGAINST ISRAEL demonstration that God is not through with the Israel that Elijah is "against"?? Is Elijah against the "remnant" or against NATIONAL ETHNIC ISRAEL. Has the remnant committed these atrocities or is it ETHNIC NATIONAL ISRAEL??????


    Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
    3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.


    Who are "they" which have "killed the prophets" and "diggged down thine altars"??? Is it the "remnant" or ETHNIC ISRAEL AS A NATION??????

    Isn't Paul providing Elijah as an example of one who made the same argument as the objector Paul is responding to in verse 1 and how that objector is as wrong as Elijah was??????

    Are you not taking the side of the objector and of Elijah "against Israel"?????? Is not your interpretation and position "against" the very same Israel Elijah opposed and the objector opposed????
     
    #25 Dr. Walter, Aug 13, 2011
  6. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Rom 11:2

    2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

    Its Two Israels according to Rom 9:6, and so there is one that God foreknew [ the election of grace, chosen in Christ from the foundation] and there is the one He did not foreknow[ National Israel], not chosen in Christ before the foundation.

    The Israel He foreknew, His people, are the people He [Jesus] shall save from their sins Matt 1:21

    21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people[Israel] from their sins.

    Thats what Paul means when he declared that God hath raised up a Saviour unto Israel Acts 13:23

    23Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

    Not Israel of the flesh, or National/ Corporate Israel, but Israel according to promise , the children of Israel of Promise Rom 9:8

    8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh[National Israel], these are not the children of God: but the children [elect Israel] of the promise are counted for the seed.

    God hath not cast away the children of promise within National Corporate Israel, The children of promise are who all the promises were made to, not to Israel after the flesh.
     
    #26 savedbymercy, Aug 15, 2011
  7. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    SGB simply repeats verses as though they support what he is saying when in fact they do not. He simply repeats the same disproven interpretations based upon jerking texts out of their context. He refuses to deal with the contrary contextual evidence placed before him. He continues to make the absurd assertion that he is presenting the truth when in fact he evades all contrary evidence and ignores contextual based evidence that contradicts his eisgesis.
     
    #27 Dr. Walter, Aug 15, 2011
  8. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    You cannot interpret this text by its immediate context because it would prove you wrong! Hence, you cut and paste. You jump all the way back to Romans 9:6 (probably mean verse 8 instead of verse 6) which deals with another contextual question and force one false interpretation to support another false intepretation.

    YOU CANNOT DEAL WITH SCRIPTURES EXEGETICALLY OR EXPOSITORILY but do the cut and past eisgetical technique to defend your theories.

    If you would deal with scriptuers HONESTLY and EXEGETICALLY your false idea would be exposed.

    I dealt with the text expositorily but YOU CANNOT because it would expose your error. You simply ignored the contextual evidence I placed before you - period!

    More cut and paste intepretations. If your position had any truth to it, you could demonstrate it exegetically and expositorily as I have done but YOU CANNOT - proof that you are wrong.
     
    #28 Dr. Walter, Aug 15, 2011
  9. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    So in Romans 11:1-2 Paul is correcting a faulty understanding, which Jews thought that Gods promises were meant for them as a Nation and premised upon ethnicity, but that was not Gods will at all, for all Gods promises were not to the Nation but to a small remnant within the Nation called Israel [which is a Nation 1 Pet 2:9], the election of grace. It was this very small remnant that God foreknew. This Israel [ election of grace] is no longer identified with National Israel, but now under the New Covenant as the Church, and now more clearly seen as the body of Christ. All the types and shadows and temple that characterized the Covenant God had with National Israel, have passed away. Even with that, Gods promises to Israel [ the election of grace] have not stopped, for God will still convert ethnic Jews as well as Gentiles [ who also are of the election of grace] and fulfill His promises to Israel [ the remnant of both Jew and gentile elect]
     
    #29 savedbymercy, Aug 15, 2011
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  10. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    double post!
     
    #30 savedbymercy, Aug 15, 2011
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    First note that Paul is not Peter, and did not write his epistle. In fact Peter refers to Paul. So your reference to Peter is moot.

    Second, not that all three of these chapters (Romans 9-11) are instruction to the believers (the church) at Rome concerning God's plan for the nation of Israel. Thus Paul is speaking of the nation of Israel. Look at the verses again:

    I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, (Romans 11:1-2)
    --"His people," "an Israelite," "the seed of Abraham," "the tribe of Benjamin," etc. He gives a quote from Elijah concerning the nation of Israel. This is not about NT believers, or the church. It is about the nation of Israel. One cannot get around such specific language.

    God's promise to Israel in Rom.11:26 is that as a nation they will be saved. Christ is coming for his own. The context is the nation of Israel, not the church or the church at Rome to whom Paul was writing, if you take the passage in its literal context. One must think as they would be thinking. The letter was written to them. As they are reading this letter what would they be thinking as the only local church for miles around in that area of the world, and a place that Paul had not yet visited. He is telling them of God's plan for Israel here, not for them.
     
    #31 DHK, Aug 15, 2011
  12. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    dhk:

    He does not have to be, they were both however inspired by the Same Author of scripture, The Holy Ghost. And those Peter wrote to, also read from Paul. This is inferred by this scripture 2 Pet 3:15

    15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

    And Peter, I am sure had the Liberty to write a Epistle or letter to Cornelius and those of His House. Cornelius was a Gentile, see Acts 10.

    So you have already started off on the wrong track in your refutation, dividing the body of Christ.

    Romans 9-11 is part of the Gospel that was preached to all the Believers in Rome, Jew or Gentile.

    Paul tells us in the opening whom the Letter is written to and what it is. Rom 1:5-7

    5By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

    6Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

    7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    The Same Gospel is Preached to the Jew First and also to the Greek Rom 1:16

    16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek

    I have already commented on Rom 11:1-2. God has not cast away people that He FOREKNEW !

    God's People that He foreknew are those He predestinated to the Image of Christ. Rom 8:

    28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

    29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    God did not predestinate the whole ethnic race of jews to be conformed to the Image of His Son. If you think He did, then provide scripture.

    I also have showed you that the whole nation was not God's Elect, for if they were, Paul's statement here is none sense Rom 11:7

    7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

    Now both groups are not God's Elect in Israel, the Election and the Rest that were blinded, that does not make sense.

    The Larger part of the Nation that was blinded were not God"s elect. God does not blind His elect, He opens their eyes.

    Yes, individual jews will become believers, like Paul did, but the Nation has been blinded.

    The Elect Nation of Israel, which was in National Israel, shall increase by the grafting in of Gentile Believers, and Jewish believers, as individuals.
     
    #32 savedbymercy, Aug 15, 2011
  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    You are avoiding context. The epistle to Rome were written well before that of Peter. Paul wrote it on his third missionary journey (55-56 A.D.), and Peter wrote his first epistle ca. 64 A.D. Thus anything Peter wrote was moot concerning the audience that Paul was writing to. It has nothing to do with ascertaining the context of anything written in the Book of Romans.
    Ha ha. Paul is not explaining any part of the gospel whatsoever. He is explaining God's plan for the nation of Israel. There is no gospel in that chapter. There are other chapters and other places in the Bible where the gospel is clearly spelled out, but not here. It is not Paul's purpose.
    Yes, it is written to the believers at Rome.

    For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: (Romans 13:3)
    --Here is teaches about government believers. According to your logic you would have us believe that Paul is writing TO the government believers. But he is not. He is instructing the believers ABOUT the government believers and what their attitude should be toward them.

    The same is true in chapters 9-11.
    He is writing TO the believers at Rome instructing THEM, ABOUT the nation of Israel. He is not writing TO the nation of Israel.
    That is, the nation of Israel. Learn context.
    This is in chapter 8, not chapters 9-11. Chapters 9-11 speak of Israel. Chapter 8 speaks of the blessings given to believers in Christ. Why do you ignore context?

    God did not predestinate the whole ethnic race of jews to be conformed to the Image of His Son. If you think He did, then provide scripture.
    They will be, eventually.
    Yes, for now they are blinded, but that does not mean they will be blinded forever as the passage infers.
    Only because you ignore the greater context of the passage.
    Romans 11:26--All Israel shall be saved--is literal. They may be blinded now, but in the future their eyes will be opened. "They shall see him whom they have pierced. Don't ignore the rest of the Bible.
     
    #33 DHK, Aug 15, 2011
  14. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Rom 11:3

    Rom 11:3

    3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

    Paul further explains, that even elijah, who feared the worst for the nation of Israel, and thought he was the only jew that God Loved, and that God was out to destroy all jews, the nation has gone bad.

    But God corrects his thinking vs 4

    4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

    God had a remnant that elijah did not know about, and Gods promises to Israel the remnant has not fluctuated.

    God had reserved for Himself a remnant to be gracious to. Isa 1:9

    9Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

    Paul refers to this very verse in Rom 9:27-29

    27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

    28For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

    29And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed [ or remnant], we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

    God told elijah that He had reserved 7000 of the people. God makes sure that He sets aside a people that satan cannot touch, even though the nation was over run with the devils Children Jn 8:44

    44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    Jesus directed these words to ethnic jews who supposedly honored Gods law and claimed to be children of Abraham, Just because they belonged to Corporate National Israel.

    Even with this horrible condition of national Israel, God had a remnant of the election of grace israel in the nation.[Which is Israel]

    Those who look for national israel and ethnic jews to all be saved, are deceived, but only a small remnant from that nation and a small remnant from the nations of the world, make up the Israel to which Gods promises were made to.
    ​
     
    #34 savedbymercy, Aug 16, 2011
  15. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    Your twisted interpretation of Romans 11:1-4 is exposed by the fact you leave out, omit part of the text that reveals your eisgetical fallacy. Instead of quoting what Paul actually says you paraphrase it to mean what you want him to say rather than what he actually says.

    The question of this text and chapter is has God cast away "his people" which are repeatedly defined by the term "Israel" throughout this context

    how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they [Israel] have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they [Israel] seek my life........7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest [of Israel] were blinded 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
    10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
    11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

    Now, look at verse 11 and define the pronoun "they" according to its consistent usage in verses 8-10. Who are "they" but those described in verses 8-10? Are "they" in verses 8-10 the "remnant" that God speaks about to Elijah? Verses 8-10 are in contrast to the "remnant" and thus cannot be the remnant God speaks about to Elijah. Are not "they" in verses 8-10 the "Israel" that Elijah makes intercession against in verse 2? This is the "they" or "Israel" that God claims have "stumbled" in verse 11 but of whom Paul in the strongest terms says "God forbid" that "they should fall" utterly or that God should utterly "cast away" as in verse 1. Paul is not talking about the "remnant" in verses 8-11 but "Israel" the ETHNIC NATION.

    It is the same "Israel" or "they" that God uses SAVED GENTILES in verse 11 to "provoke THEM to jealousy."

    I know you cannot deal with the evidence I have just placed squarely in your face by the pronouns in verses 8-11. On one hand you are forced to admit that it is NATIONAL ETHNIC ISRAEL that is being described under the pronouns of "they" and "them" in verses 2-11 because "they" are charged with the whole list of atrocities and it is "they" whom Elijah made intercession "against" (v. 2) and it is "they" or ETHNIC NATIONAL ISRAEL whom Isaiah is describing in verses 8-10. However, on the other hand you are forced by your false interpretation to insist that "they" in verse 11 are the "remnant" of Israel instead of NATIONAL ETHNIC ISRAEL because if you do not take that position then verse 11 proves that verse 1 is speaking of the same people as the words "God forbid" is the same response to the same consideration whether God has "cast away" or allowed them to utterly "fall"!

    The truth is that Elijah is given as an example of one who believed God should cast away Israel because of such atrocities and Paul is merely providing the example of Elijah to prove that Israel has a history of rebellion against God and yet the proof that God never fully forsook Israel is that he always reserved a "remnant" among them and the reason he has always reserved a "remnant" THEN and NOW (v. 5) is that God has future plans to save "all Israel" as an ethnic nation IN DISTINCTION FROM saved gentiles (vv. 11-28). This blind condition described in verses 8-10 is PARTIAL (v. 25) and is by God's design presently in order to bring salvation to GENTILES (not spiritual Israel a mixture of gentiles and Jews) UNTIL the fullness of the GENTILE elect be called in and then the God who forbid that Israel should fall completely (v. 11) will save "all Israel" in keeping with his covenant made to Abraham. This is the "Israel" that is now "ENEMIES OF THE GOSPEL" for the sake of GENTILES (v. 28).

    You can't deal with this contextual based evidence. You will either ignore it, pervert it and/or simply repeat your parrot eisgetical nonsense.



    If you missed my point above, the "God forbid" in verse 1 concerns the same entity as the "God forbid" in verse 11 - Ethnic National Israel. The "people" God will not cast away in verse 1 are the same people God will not allow to "fall" in verse 11. The "people" in verse 1 are "Israel" in verse 2 the Israel that committed all the atrocities accused by Elijah and the Israel presently in the condition described in verses 8-11. The "remnant" then and now is presented as proof that God has not cast away the nation of Israel then or now but that God is determined that Israel "should not fall" utterly, only temporarily until the elect Gentiles are saved and then "all Israel" will be saved.






     
    #35 Dr. Walter, Aug 16, 2011
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  16. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    The "Israel" in Romans 11 is CONTRASTED to the Gentiles rather than inclusive of the Gentiles as verses 11-25 clearly demonstrate:

    11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
    12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
    14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
    15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

    The same "Israel" in Romans 11 is CONTRASTED to the ELECT Gentiles rather than inclusive of them:

    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    In verse 25 "ye" are in contrast to "Israel" as the "Israel" being descirbed is in "blindness." This same "Israel" is in contrast to "the Gentiles" that "come in."

    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

    Begin with the pronoun "they" in the latter part of verse 28 above and trace it back to "your" in the first part of verse 28 - "They" are contrasted to "your" not inclusive of "your." Distinct from Gentile elect.

    Now continue to trace the pronoun "they" in the first part of verse 28 to the "them" in verse 27. What is the grammatical antecedent for "them" in verse 27? It is "Jacob" in verse 26 which grammatically refers to "All Israel" in verse 26. Hence, "they" is contrasted to "you" not inclusive of "you" and "they" grammatically refers to "all Israel."

    Furthermore, the contextual "they" are identified presently as "enemies of the gospel" in verse 28 or those described in verses 8-10 and are in contrast to elect Gentiles "your sakes."

    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

    Note that Paul did not say in verse 27 "us" but "them" and "their" thus excluding elect Gentiles from the time ("shall come out of Zion"), action ("take away....sins") and subject identified in verse 26 as "all Israel" and "Jacob."

    Furthermore, Israel is placed in contrast to the "remnant" as much as it is placed in contrast to both Gentiles and Elect Gentiles which is further proof that the "remnant" is simply provided as proof that God has not "cast away" Israel and will not allow Israel to completely and utterly "fall".
     
    #36 Dr. Walter, Aug 16, 2011
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  17. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    dw

    The remnant was Israel, thats what Elijah did not understand. The remnant has always been Israel..Isa 1:9

    Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

    The very small remnant in National Israel was the Israel which had the promises given to them.

    When Paul says in Rom9:6

    6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

    There are Two Israels, one was National Israel, made up of Abraham's Physical descendants, which was most, the other Israel was a very small remnant made up of Abraham's physical descendants who were born again.
     
    #37 savedbymercy, Aug 16, 2011
  18. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
    22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
    23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

    Note the use of the PRESENT TENSE that describes the cut off, broken off condition of those described as "they" which grammatically refers to "Israel" in verse 11 - the Israel God has PRESENTLY rejected in verses 8-10.

    The pronoun "they" refers to ETHNIC NATIONAL ISRAEL described in verses 8-10. It cannot refer to the "remnant" as the remnant have never been cut off, broken off and in need to be "graft...in again."

    The pronoun "they" refers to ETHNIC NATIONAL ISRAEL described in verses 8-10. It cannot refer to ALL THE ELECT because all of the elect are not presently cut off or broken off and in need to be "graft in....again."

    It is this Israel that God is able to "graft them in again." Not the "remnant" not Elect Gentiles, not ALL the Elect but ethnic national Israel.

    Now, Your position is the very opposite. You cannot say God is able to "graft them in again" because you believe there is no salvation for what God cut off, broke off which is Ethnic National Israel but only for the "remnant" ethnic Israelites. However, that is not what Paul says:

    12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

    15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

    24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    First note the term "fullness" in verse 12 with the term "in part" in verse 25. Their blindness is in "part" presently because God always saves a "remnant" in every generation. However, there is coming a day when there is no more PARTIAL salvation of Israel or "remnant" salvation but instead the "fullness" of Israel will be saved or "all Israel."

    Second, note that the Israel of verses 12,15 and 24 is the Israel that has been temporarily rejected by God as described in verses 8-10 and "cut off" and "broken off" by God in verses 15-24. Hence, this cannot be "remnant" Israel or the elect Gentiles or ALL the elect but can only be ETHNIC NATIONAL ISRAEL!

    It is this kind of Israel that will be "graft...in AGAIN" into the sphere of God's redemptive work because God's present spher of redemptive work is among the Gentile nations "until the fullness of the gentiles be come in." At that point when "the fullness of the gentiles be COME IN" to salvation then "all Israel" - the Israel distinct from "the gentiles be come in" the Israel distinct from "you" the Israel that is NOW PRESENTLY "enemies of the gospel for YOUR sakes" will be saved.
     
    #38 Dr. Walter, Aug 16, 2011
  19. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    dw

    significant, but not significant to your rebuttal. At the Time of Pauls Ministry, God was confirming what had already been stated by Christ. Christ had already predicted the breaking off of the reprbated jews here Matt 21:43

    Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

    Paul finalized it with His departure from the jews and going full steam ahead for the gentiles, he and barnabas Acts 13:46

    Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles
     
    #39 savedbymercy, Aug 16, 2011
  20. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    Try to validate your interpretation in the context of Romans 11 and the pronouns???? Good luck chuck!!!
     
    #40 Dr. Walter, Aug 16, 2011
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