Matthias

[beameup]

Paul was the Apostle that Jesus used to teach his "other flock" the gentiles...

His Apostleship was JUST as valid as other 11, more so than mattius!

Paul is my apostle since I am a Gentile. My "doctrine" is based on Paul's Epistles. Paul's teaching is "foundational" to me.
I Cor 3:10
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon.

I observe the rest of the New Testament (including Paul's "Hebrews") using Paul's "foundation" as my guide. Where other parts don't conflict with Pauline Doctrine then they apply to me. Where there are "conflicts" (like in Matthew ch. 24) then they apply to "another group". For me, this eliminates all "confusion" and false-doctrine.

Clearly there are portions of the New Testament that are addressed to Jews under the Law. As such, I place them in a "future" category that applies to believing Jews during the Tribulation, when I feel that the "Church" will once again become like the First Church in Jerusalem under the Twelve and observing the Law.

 

[Jerome]

Has anyone else noticed this similarity between the twelve apostles and the twelve tribes of Israel?:

It could be asked concerning the tribes: Were there 12, 13, or 14 tribes of Israel?

It could be asked concerning the apostles: Were there 12, 13, or 14 apostles?

The question concerning the tribes revolves around Joseph and his two sons (the half-tribes) Manasseh and Ephraim. Which one of these is counted in the twelve?
The question concerning the apostles revolves around Judas, Matthias, and Paul. Which one of these is counted in the twelve?

Manasseh is included in the count as is Joseph. Ephraim is almost of a certain counted as one with Joseph.

So your answer to your first question is both Manassah and Ephraim are counted.

What is your answer to your second question?

MHO, Paul is the twelfth apostle.

Just Paul, or both Matthias and Paul?

 

[DHK]

Would say that the Apostle paul was "unique" case here, as his Apostolic authority/position/rank exactly viewed among original 11 equal to theirs, NEVER said same for rest that you listed, except foe James, Jesus half brother...

Why not him as the 12th, not mattius?

Paul had a unique ministry. He was an apostle to the Gentiles. God used him in many ways. He says of himself that he "was one born out of due time." I "was the chief of sinners because I persecuted the church of God." And God to Anannias, "For I must show him how many things he must suffer."
Yes God used him.
But you are rationalizing. You are using human reasoning and dismissing the facts of history. If you, by your human reasoning demand that Paul be made the 12th apostle then Peter becomes a false prophet.

Peter fulfills prophecy when Matthias is chosen as the 12th apostle. All the apostles agree with this choice. It is God's way, and God's approval is put on it. The choice was never rescinded. We have no right to question Peter's and the apostles' decision 2,000 years after the fact when we are this far removed from the event. We weren't there! Who are we to question the choice of God??

 

[Jerome]

concerning the apostles: Were there 12, 13, or 14 apostles?

Or 11 or 10?

Paul writes in I Cor. 15:5

And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve.

 

[kyredneck]

So your answer to your first question is both Manassah and Ephraim are counted.

Concerning Ephraim, Jacob blessed him over his older (firstborn) brother Manasseh, in spite of Joseph's objection:

17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father`s hand, to remove it from Ephraim`s head unto Manasseh`s head.
18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father; for this is the first-born; put thy right hand upon his head.
19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: howbeit his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee will Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh. Gen 48

But Ephraim is not mentioned in Rev 7, only Manessah and Joseph are:

5 Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand: Of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand;
6 Of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand;
7 Of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand;
8 Of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. Rev 7

It's my humble opinion that Ephraim is counted as Joseph in Rev 7.

What is your answer to your second question?

Well, the questions were actually intended to be rhetorical, but, Rev 21:14 actually says “twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve apostles”. So it's twelve.

Just Paul, or both Matthias and Paul?

Insufficient data, but it's really hard for me to imagine that Paul's name is not on one of those foundations of the New Covenant.

 

[kyredneck]

Or 11 or 10?

Paul writes in I Cor. 15:5

I don't know, do you know?

 

[Jerome]

There were only ten when Jesus appeared the first time (Thomas was absent).
Yet to Paul those ten were "the twelve".

 

[DHK]

There were only ten when Jesus appeared the first time (Thomas was absent).
Yet to Paul those ten were "the twelve".

"The Twelve" was a common designation for the eleven (or ten as it may have been. That is what they were referred to as. Look at the passage.

And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: (1 Corinthians 15:5)
--He was seen of Peter, then of "The Twelve," or the ten that were there present.

After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. (1 Corinthians 15:6)
--Then he was seen of over 500 witnesses.

After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. (1 Corinthians 15:7)
--This is an interesting verse. He was seen of James, then of all the apostles. The word all seems to indicate that it is more that just The Twelve, but probably "the seventy" that had been previously sent out. It was more than just 12 disciples.

And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. (1 Corinthians 15:8)
--Last of all--Paul does not count himself among the 12 or even among "all the apostles." He is set apart from them all. He is one born out of due time. He became an apostle quite awhile after they all did. He attributes his calling all to the mercy of God in other places. But he never counts himself among the "twelve". In fact, just after he did get saved, it was the "twelve" that had a hard time accepting him as a believer. Barnabas had to bring him to them, and assure them that he indeed was saved and that he had already been preaching the gospel.

And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple.
27 But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus. (Acts 9:26-27)

And this was after the Jews had plotted to kill him and he had to be let over the wall in a basket!!

 

[kyredneck]

There were only ten when Jesus appeared the first time (Thomas was absent).
Yet to Paul those ten were "the twelve".

Ah, ok, but I count 5 other places in scripture where they are referred to as 'the eleven'.

 

[kyredneck]

You think Paul could be using 'the twelve' metaphorically in 1 Cor 15:5?

 

[DHK]

You think Paul could be using 'the twelve' metaphorically in 1 Cor 15:5?

No. I take the Scriptures literally. God chose Matthias in the first chapter of Acts. Whom am I to question God's choice? It was never rescinded, nor questioned by anyone in the Bible.

 

[JesusFan]

Paul had a unique ministry. He was an apostle to the Gentiles. God used him in many ways. He says of himself that he "was one born out of due time." I "was the chief of sinners because I persecuted the church of God." And God to Anannias, "For I must show him how many things he must suffer."
Yes God used him.
But you are rationalizing. You are using human reasoning and dismissing the facts of history. If you, by your human reasoning demand that Paul be made the 12th apostle then Peter becomes a false prophet.

Peter fulfills prophecy when Matthias is chosen as the 12th apostle. All the apostles agree with this choice. It is God's way, and God's approval is put on it. The choice was never rescinded. We have no right to question Peter's and the apostles' decision 2,000 years after the fact when we are this far removed from the event. We weren't there! Who are we to question the choice of God??

Point being made here is that peter quoted scripture while having them cast the lots, Bible recored their choice, but paul was the Apostle chosen directly by God!

For "proof" just look at the Books inspired by God paul wrote, and how the 11 Apostles viewed him equal to all of them!

 

[Jerome]

More from I Cor. 15:

"I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God."

 

[JesusFan]

More from I Cor. 15:

"I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God."

the reality is that paul was the greatest of all of the Apostles of Jesus Christ!

 

[DHK]

Point being made here is that peter quoted scripture while having them cast the lots, Bible recored their choice, but paul was the Apostle chosen directly by God!

For "proof" just look at the Books inspired by God paul wrote, and how the 11 Apostles viewed him equal to all of them!

Luke was not an Apostle. He wrote two of the longest books of the Bible.
Mark was not an Apostle. He wrote one of the gospels.
Jude was not an Apostle. He was the half brother of Christ!
We don't know the author of Hebrews.

So others contributed to the Bible as well and were not apostles. That is no proof. Barnabas, Timotheus, and Sylvanus are called apostles by God (the Scriptures). Why not either one of them. Barnabas contributed much to the work of the Lord. He also was chosen directly by God (Acts 13:1-3).

The fact is that God chose Matthias. It is recorded in Acts 1. He chose him as the 12th apostle, something that Paul denies. How can you argue against Scripture?

 

[DHK]

the reality is that paul was the greatest of all of the Apostles of Jesus Christ!

Your opinion doesn't count. Paul said that he was least of all the apostles.

For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. (1 Corinthians 15:9)

 

[JesusFan]

Your opinion doesn't count. Paul said that he was least of all the apostles.

For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. (1 Corinthians 15:9)

that was Him giving his reflection upon himself, his testimony of how bad he was as a sinner, but God opinion is that he was indeed 'Chief" among the Apostles!

 

[Jerome]

II Cor. 12:11
I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.

 

[JesusFan]

II Cor. 12:11
I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.

true meekness, that the greatest of all Apostles did not "allow pride to puff him up"

 

[DHK]

II Cor. 12:11
I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.

Context is king.
Know what he was saying and why?
There were false prophets in the church. They wanted him to bring credentials. They did not think that he was even deserving to be an apostle much less a leader of the church. These false teachers wanted to lead the church and to get rid of Paul. Paul is asserting his authority, giving his defense as an apostle of Christ.

There were many that had not repented. Look at the last verse of the chapter.

that again when I come my God would humble me before you, and I would mourn for many of those who have sinned before now, and not repented of the uncleanness and sexual immorality and lustfulness which they committed. (2 Corinthians 12:21) [WEB]