Do You regard Doctrine of Gifts Continuing/Ceasing as being "essential?"

[TomVols]

Will it be a dividing issue, or seen as a secondary issue among the bethren?

I think there should be less division among sisters and brothers in Christ. There is a tremendous amount that unites us. However, it's not an issue that people in the same church can be "all over the map" on for the sake of unity.

The older I get, the less theological issues I have on the top of the shelf that make me want to burn someone at the stake. Some of you young pups (and older ones) need to listen and learn.

 

[JesusFan]

JF


This is false;

No....you want to claim that you do..but you deny a completed word of scripture.....for you to claim that revelatory gifts still operate...but yet do not give any new revelation is contradictory....

Please reread what I posted!

NO NEW REVELATION FROM GOD TODAY!

We though can expect the HS to at times still give His wisdom and guidance into a specific situation, as He is NOT only confined to working within Bible...

Scriptures ARE main and primary ,only infallible source from God, that is why the HS will do all things per the Book!

Strict ways to check the Spirit, IF meets/adheres to the Bible, from God, if not, not from God!


There are no bapticostals......there are charismatics who also believe in believers baptism....they are not baptists strictly speaking.

Actually, I have JUST as much right to call myself a baptist as you would, as many in Baptists churches leary of having Creeds/Confessionals in the Church!

 

[Iconoclast]

Actually, I have JUST as much right to call myself a baptist as you would, as many in Baptists churches leary of having Creeds/Confessionals in the Church!

Jf....sure you do.....so can a mormon....but baptists historically do not hold to ongoing revelation.....I can call myself a millionaire too, but lying is a sin:thumbsup:

 

[JesusFan]

Jf....sure you do.....so can a mormon....but baptists historically do not hold to ongoing revelation.....I can call myself a millionaire too, but lying is a sin:thumbsup:

One more time, NONE that I am aware of in Charasmatic/pentacostal groups hold to "ongoing revelations" from the Lord, there are still Gifts operating, But NOT in abasis on ongoing revelation!

ONLY heretical groups like WoF, health and wealth etc are there erronous "revelations" and teachings, as they get it from AntiChrist spirit, not the HS!

So I guess the BAPTIST Systematic Theologian DR Wayne Grudem is NOT a real baptist, eh?

 

[DHK]

One more time, NONE that I am aware of in Charasmatic/pentacostal groups hold to "ongoing revelations" from the Lord, there are still Gifts operating, But NOT in abasis on ongoing revelation!

ONLY heretical groups like WoF, health and wealth etc are there erronous "revelations" and teachings, as they get it from AntiChrist spirit, not the HS!

So I guess the BAPTIST Systematic Theologian DR Wayne Grudem is NOT a real baptist, eh?

If he believes in on-going revelation he is wrong, and his doctrine should be avoided.

 

[JesusFan]

If he believes in on-going revelation he is wrong, and his doctrine should be avoided.

except that he DOES NOT hold that there are any 'additional" revelations from them operating today, sees it much same way as I have outlined them, and he is one of the MSOT prominent theologians in our circles today, he and Millard Erickson!

 

[freeatlast]

The reason we see the claim that the gifts are still at work in the church is because we are in the falling away.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables

 

[DHK]

except that he DOES NOT hold that there are any 'additional" revelations from them operating today, sees it much same way as I have outlined them, and he is one of the MSOT prominent theologians in our circles today, he and Millard Erickson!

So why do you infer that he does, putting him in the same class as Charismatics:

So I guess the BAPTIST Systematic Theologian DR Wayne Grudem is NOT a real baptist, eh?

 

[DHK]

The reason we see the claim that the gifts are still at work in the church is because we are in the falling away.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables

And yet you cannot provide a single shred of evidence that sign gifts are operational today. When challenged you shut up immediately.

Give me one example of the gift of healing today--Where is a "faith healer" such as Peter in Acts 5:16, able to go up and down the corridors of all the hospitals in a city and heal ALL that are there, as Peter healed ALL the sick in ALL the cities round about Jerusalem.

It is evident that such things do not take place today.

 

[JesusFan]

So why do you infer that he does, putting him in the same class as Charismatics:

Dr grudem on of the BEST theologinas we baptists have today!

Again, NO reputable charasmatic/pentaclostist Baptist holds that gifts ARE still in a revelatory stage!

Canon is closed!


Just saying that there are indeed "baptacostalists" just as there are IBF baptists Dispy baptists etc!

 

[freeatlast]

And yet you cannot provide a single shred of evidence that sign gifts are operational today. When challenged you shut up immediately.

Give me one example of the gift of healing today--Where is a "faith healer" such as Peter in Acts 5:16, able to go up and down the corridors of all the hospitals in a city and heal ALL that are there, as Peter healed ALL the sick in ALL the cities round about Jerusalem.

It is evident that such things do not take place today.

What are you talking about?

 

[DHK]

Dr grudem on of the BEST theologinas we baptists have today!

Again, NO reputable charasmatic/pentaclostist Baptist holds that gifts ARE still in a revelatory stage!

Canon is closed!


Just saying that there are indeed "baptacostalists" just as there are IBF baptists Dispy baptists etc!

You are wrong. I have talked to many Charismatics. Their "words of prophecy," "revelations from God," visions, dreams, etc. are all of God. If they are revelatory in nature then they are inspired. They are of God and can be counted as Scripture. "The God told me" factor cannot be ignored here, just as much as Papal bulls in the RCC. It is another form of authority in addition to the Word of God, and has as much authority as the Book of Mormon in the Mormon Church, and the publications of Watchtower in the J.W.'s, and Great Controversy in the SDA, and on and on. All cults have another "inspired" authority along with the Bible; a secondary authority. It is the Bible AND_____. It is NOT the sola scriptura. It is not the Bible is our only authority. They appeal to their experiences as another authority just as great as the Bible.

 

[DHK]

What are you talking about?

Maybe I was wrong, but I took this as a defense of sign gifts for being operational today, and my answer was to it:

The reason we see the claim that the gifts are still at work in the church is because we are in the falling away.

 

[JesusFan]

You are wrong. I have talked to many Charismatics. Their "words of prophecy," "revelations from God," visions, dreams, etc. are all of God. If they are revelatory in nature then they are inspired. They are of God and can be counted as Scripture. "The God told me" factor cannot be ignored here, just as much as Papal bulls in the RCC. It is another form of authority in addition to the Word of God, and has as much authority as the Book of Mormon in the Mormon Church, and the publications of Watchtower in the J.W.'s, and Great Controversy in the SDA, and on and on. All cults have another "inspired" authority along with the Bible; a secondary authority. It is the Bible AND_____. It is NOT the sola scriptura. It is not the Bible is our only authority. They appeal to their experiences as another authority just as great as the Bible.

Again, NO reputable charasmatic/pentaclostalists sees them as being addition to/added revelations for the Bible!
MUCH of them do today, I agree with you, its those in the Cultic/Heretical movements like WoF/Wealth and health etc!

have you ever spoken to one who was from a "mainstream" group like Assemblies of God?

They hold to God still healing and able to do miracles today BUT those are 'exceptions", when God decides to break in and intervene!

 

[DHK]

Again, NO reputable charasmatic/pentaclostalists sees them as being addition to/added revelations for the Bible!
MUCH of them do today, I agree with you, its those in the Cultic/Heretical movements like WoF/Wealth and health etc!

have you ever spoken to one who was from a "mainstream" group like Assemblies of God?

They hold to God still healing and able to do miracles today BUT those are 'exceptions", when God decides to break in and intervene!

Yes, without exception, they all believe the same thing. Some believe more to an extreme then others. What is the purpose of "speaking in tongues"? God is giving them special revelation isn't he, even in the AOG.

Look at it this way.
In 1950 the pope in the RCC declared that the Assumption of Mary was now part of the official dogma of the Catholic Church. Now, ask any Roman Catholic about it. They will defend that Assumption of Mary as much as they will the trinity or even the deity of Christ, even though there is not a shred of evidence in the Bible that supports it. It is a man-made extra-biblical doctrine that came about in 1950. To the RCC's it is just as "inspired" as the contents of the Bible.

The revelations that come to the AOG and other Pentecostal and Charismatic groups are revelations from God. If they are revelatory in nature then God spoke to them, as he did to the prophets of old.

 

[preacher4truth]

Where in Scripture did a "faith healer" heal ALL people?

Was this what happened with the operation and implementation of said gift in the NT?

Not at all.

The request to provide proof that one bring another forward that heals "ALL" persons in a hospital is nonsensical, and fails to replicate/request a true Biblical model of the gift.

If a person healed all persons in a hospital we'd need no one person to let us know about it, it would be noised abroad.

 

[JesusFan]

Yes, without exception, they all believe the same thing. Some believe more to an extreme then others. What is the purpose of "speaking in tongues"? God is giving them special revelation isn't he, even in the AOG.

Look at it this way.
In 1950 the pope in the RCC declared that the Assumption of Mary was now part of the official dogma of the Catholic Church. Now, ask any Roman Catholic about it. They will defend that Assumption of Mary as much as they will the trinity or even the deity of Christ, even though there is not a shred of evidence in the Bible that supports it. It is a man-made extra-biblical doctrine that came about in 1950. To the RCC's it is just as "inspired" as the contents of the Bible.

The revelations that come to the AOG and other Pentecostal and Charismatic groups are revelations from God. If they are revelatory in nature then God spoke to them, as he did to the prophets of old.

IF there is a genuine tongue and intertretation given to a local assembly, would be one of encouragement edification direction NOT new/additional revelations from God!

And would HAVE to be checked by the scriptures, as they are ONLY infallible truth from God!

 

[Jerome]

Where in Scripture did a "faith healer" heal ALL people?

Was this what happened with the operation and implementation of said gift in the NT?

Not at all. . .

Acts 5:12-16
And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch. And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them. And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.) Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them. There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

 

[DHK]

Where in Scripture did a "faith healer" heal ALL people?

Was this what happened with the operation and implementation of said gift in the NT?

Not at all.

The request to provide proof that one bring another forward that heals "ALL" persons in a hospital is nonsensical, and fails to replicate/request a true Biblical model of the gift.

If a person healed all persons in a hospital we'd need no one person to let us know about it, it would be noised abroad.

There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one. (Acts 5:16)
--Jesus never turned anyone away.
The Apostles never turned anyone away.
That doesn't happen today! Why? The gift of healing has ceased!

 

[DHK]

IF there is a genuine tongue and intertretation given to a local assembly, would be one of encouragement edification direction NOT new/additional revelations from God!

And would HAVE to be checked by the scriptures, as they are ONLY infallible truth from God!

Tongues is not gibberish.
They are real languages. Why do the AOG missionaries learn foreign languages if they believe they have the gift of tongues?
They are fakes!!