Regarding those who have never heard...

been reading this thread with interest!

Think important to remember on this topic is that Man is doomed/condemned NOT due to God determining they were, not due to rejecting jesus, its due to being In Adam, as being sinners!

So regardless if heard about jesus, or rejected Him, still lost due to sinful state!

So ALL are born in this state, and ONLY Grace of God can reverse that spiritual condition, and make one 'right with God"

In my understanding, those whom God has elected and freely chosen to receive jesus will indeed have the Gospel "preached" to them, by TV/radio/people?book etc!

 

This statement is heretical:

Not the verses you posted.

 

Attempting to throw out my argument with the following rhetorical questions, eh? Ever heard of a smoke-screen?

What kind of a question is that!? I’ve expressed the necessity of that truth here several times already!

Reeeally John?! Are you telling me you believe that God created “some” men to only be predestined to damnation by pre-determining that they be without hope?! I’ve been known to bite Calvinist heads off for statements that equate that some have no hope and God help the Hard Determinist that would interject that garbage in person into my attempts to evangelize, because I would tell him directly to his face he was telling the lies and doing the work of the Devil and if he don’t like it and wants to do something about it he’d better be not only be a skilled fighter but in very good physical condition cause this 53 year old can dance. :smilewinkgrin: I don’t know about you but I preach that God’s Good work in creation is perfect, and all His ways judgment in truth. (Deut 32:4) That Divine judgment from an Only Good and Loving God means ALL men have genuine hope in the real offer to all of grace through faith from what the Spirit/Light has revealed in Truth! …and therefore all creatures have the volition and thereby the responsibility to respond to that genuine offer to all and none have an excuse!

I’m saying Christ Spirit has gone into the entire world and is sufficient. Personally, I didn’t have the advantage of a family tree of evangelist pastor grandfathers, father, and uncles so that I would end up understanding and being drawn to the Truth and be saved at 4-5 years old as in the ways you came to know the Truth. I was 35 years when I died to myself and ask/prayed to know and have a relationship with God and I knew nothing about the lines you attempt draw that one must cross, didn’t even need an evangelist, yet I was in capable Hands and saved from the very moment I cried out to know God and for Him to be the Lord of my life; His Spirit/Light was there, came into my heart, no one would ever convince me that anything would have taken me out of His Hand, and He taught me everything He wanted me to know and understand about Him later.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1703866&postcount=211

(2Co 3:2) Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

(2Co 3:3) Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

(2Co 3:4) And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

(2Co 3:5) Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

(2Co 3:6) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

I respect you John so hope you will be careful with your rhetorical strawman that I'm taking as an accusations of Polytheism.

Christ’ Spirit in all the world is the definite article, that is the true Light. God forbid that “I” be mistook as sounding like a Calvinist, but salvation is all of God, the Light is the Spirit of Christ, the Word brings wisdom about the Truth and how we are saved, but God judges the heart . BTW, none having an excuse is further evidence that all have real hope.

(Rom 1:20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

(Rom 1:21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

(Rom 1:22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

John, I would love to interact with you more on this subject and am sure I would learn a few things in the process (you might would even take a deeper look at a few things yourself in the process, God uses people like me sometimes to show you smart guys a thing or two on occasions ) But I have an overwhelming amount of homework to get done this weekend.

Blessings

 

Benjamin, I was genuinely confused by your post. No offense, but I couldn't make sense of the words or the grammar. My questions were an honest attempt to understand what you were saying. More later. Gotta eat breakfast.

 

Again, these were not rhetorical questions. I was genuinely trying to find out your position. In particular, Alive in Christ keeps using the phrase "spiritual influence" about John 1:9, and I wondered if you agreed with that.

I phrased my question poorly. I'm not a Calvinist and certainly don't believe in double predesitination. All I meant to say was that I don't know any particular passage that says that.

This is a wonderful testimony. Thank you. All I was trying to find out was whether or not you agreed with Alive in Christ.

An accusation of polytheism was absolutly the furthest thing from my mind. I just wanted to know how you interpreted John 1:9.

So then I take it that you disagree with Alive in Christ about people being saved without the Gospel, correct?

Have a great weekend. I have to go to the church to work myself shortly.

 

You've misinterpreted what I was saying. (CF my post to Benjamin.) I believe Christ died for all men, and all have hope through the Gospel.

Having said that, and perhaps to be overly literal, but none of those passages you quoted have the word "hope" in them.

Now that you have your over-reaction out of the way, how about answering some of the points I made directly to you?

 

What points? All you did was quote Scripture, ostensibly to disprove something I did not mean to imply when I wrote Benjamin. You didn't tell how those verses were supposed to prove your position.

In the meantime, what I would still like you to answer is, do you still cling to your notion that John 1:9 is talking about "spiritual influence"? Or do you admit that the verse is specifically talking about Christ and nothing else?

But as long as we are talking about the verse, let's look at the Greek of John 1:9. The verb there for "lighteth" is the Greek photizo, meaning of course "to shine light onto" (my definition). In this case the form of the verb is present active indicative, 3rd person singular. The tense means that it is not an accomplished action (normally, the perfect or aorist tense would show that), but rather linear action in present time, the durative or progressive present.

What this grammar means is that Christ is always giving light to people, not that at this instant every single person in the world has the light of Christ. It is a continuous project for Christ. But it is only light, not salvation. They themselves must begin to seek God.

One of my mentors, Dr. Monroe Parker, had a sermon in which he described the barriers to Hell Christ puts in front of every single person: sickness, injury, death of loved ones and friends, disaster, etc. People crawl over the barriers on their self-centered way because they don't care about God. It is not that He doesn't want to save them, they ignore Him. We are seeing this in Japan right now, where multitudes continue to ignore God in spite of the huge disaster in March. God has no responsibility to save wicked people like this who constantly ignore Him. They go to Hell on their own--God doesn't capriciously decide to send them there. They do not seek Him, do not try to find the truth. And God will not save them outside of the truth of Jesus Christ and His death for sins and His resurrection. "The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not" (v. 5).

However, there are always people who heeds God's warnings, and turn to seek the truth. As my grandfather used to say, "You can't win everyone, but you can always win someone." We have a lady in our church who got saved, and I baptized this summer who started coming back to church after the disaster. But she had to hear the Gospel from us. She did not get saved outside of that.

 

Matthew 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.


Jesus is speaking here of the light (knowledge) that God has given to the Jews regarding God's Son. If they received the knowledge, God would give them more. If they refused it, God would take away even that knowledge that they had and thus their hearts would be hardened.



Paul speaks of the same thing in Romans 1. (although he is speaking of Gentiles)

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


God gives knowledge of Himself to all people, but if they refuse it, their heart will harden against Him. But if they receive it, God will reveal Himself even more.

Even the man in the darkest jungle can seek his creator and if he is sincere, God will make a way for him to hear the gospel and be saved.

I have read many stories of missionaries who have gone to a remote people who were ready to receive the gospel because they had realized the Creator and had listened to the conscience in them telling them they had sinned and thus their hearts were prepared to hear the gospel.

Nothing is too difficult for our God. If a man wants to know Him, He will make Himself known. But to be saved apart from the gospel of Christ is not a biblical concept.

 

Well said, Amy! This is exactly what I've been trying (perhaps poorly) to say all along. I even gave the example of my mother's uncle going to Africa and preaching to a pygmy tribe, one of who was seeking God. This type of seeker is responding to general (also called natural) revelation, God's revelation through nature (including the heart of man).

There is also the wonderful book, Peace Child, by Don Richardson, telling of the custom of one people group of exchanging babies to make peace, then being able to understand about Christ God's Son. Another great book on this by Richardson is Eternity in their Hearts. I highly recommend both books.

Along with you, what I do not believe (and Alive in Christ does believe) is that anyone will actually come to salvation through general revelation. They can only come to a knowledge of God through general revelation (Ps. 19), not salvation. But if a lost person, apart from any knowledge of Christ, begins seeking God through general revelation, God will then give him further help through human means.

 

The Loerd will call out MANY from every tribe/persons group/culture, and the agent for that will be the message of the Cross, sent out by radio/tv/wriiten materials. missions etc

ALL those whom God has elected out to receive Jesus and get saved will have the message somehow delivered unto them!

 

I agree with John's and Amy G's conclusion, although I get there by a slightly different route. God will indeed make his Son known to those who seek him by sending someone with the gospel.

But Paul also wrote in Romans 10:20, regarding the Gentiles (quoting Isaiah 65)

The point is that God has determined means as well as the end. The end is the salvation of the elect; the means is through the gospel. brought to them by human instruments. And the means is not limited only to those who seek him.

Those who believe God saves independently of the gospel must explain how that works. How does God do that?

The scriptures tell us that God spoke directly to some folks in the Old Testament; then he spoke to them through his prophets; and finally, through the Son.

Hebrews 1:1-2

To suggest that one can come to a knowledge of the Son by means other than the Gospels and the rest of the New Testament, seems to suggest that it is something that one can intuitively know through some nebulous means. One can just know it.

That view is known as Gnosticism.

 

Think we ALL would agree that the agent that God uses to bring perople His grace is the Gospel of the Cross, but also that the persons who will respond to its message are those whom God elected in Christ to be saved, and those are the ones God will provide it to by whatever means!

 

I believe you should first explain what you mean by 'saves', and then support it with scripture.

But to answer your question: The Spirit blows where He wills. He changes hearts as He wills. It's not about head knowledge, it's about heart condition and the resulting good works that come from a heart that has had the law supernaturally written upon it.

 

Good posts, many of them, but to my old eyes it appears some of ya'll aren't listening to each other.

There are so many ways God could deal with both justice and mercy with those that never hear, all based on Jesus Christ and redemption bought and paid for by Him.

God could elect some to salvation and make sure they hear. Case closed.

BUT He could elect all those IN Christ, and since He is all knowing make sure those who will believe get a chance to accept the gospel and believe.

We act like those are His only choices.

But from Genesis to at least Romans we see those "God fearers". We have God telling us those in any nation that do right and trust God will be saved.

So we ramble on trying to figure out how, when there are many possible mechanisms, none involving salvation outside of Christ.

No matter how blinded the mind is by paganism, when God encounters the heart that trusts Him and attempts to obey, however poorly, our sovereign God CAN speak to the pagan heart. Maybe at the point of death, just this side of it. Maybe when that poor sinner stands before God. It may be that God meant it when He said it will be according to what we have we are judged by, not by what we didn't have.

I realize all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. I realize all deserve hell.

But I see nothing from Genesis to Revelation, no matter what your theological system, that suggests the following scene:

Suzy pagan nation stands before God, guilty and condemned. "Oh," she cries out, "If only You would forgive me--I knew from the sky and mountains you were there and I wanted to know You and find forgiveness!"

God replies, "Yes, I know. I told Jimmy from 1st Baptist in Decatur to go to the mission field and tell you. He didn't, so off to hell with you. I'll make sure he gets fewer rewards in heaven for disobeying Me."

Suzy cries out, "Wait, I deserve hell, I know, but He got to know You, he could have kept me out of hell but disobeyed a direct command, and the punishment for that falls on me? Maybe I really am in hell already!"