Regarding those who have never heard...

...and yes, I do play a 12-string guitar...and six-string sometimes

 

They were redeemed by the blood, born from above just as all His children are. Their being 'doers of the law', i.e., 'working no ill towards their neighbor' [Ro 13:10], was a result of a heart that has been born from above.

 

JoJ, this is what I feel is correct. However, I would like to know ideas about God providing "further help through human means". I assume you mean in the form of someone delivering the gospel message to them. If so, then do we have reason to believe that God would send the help much like he used Esther? Specifically, that If that 'someone' doesn't go to deliver the gospel to that lost person who "begins seekeing God through general revelation", then will God send someone else as Mordecaia told Esther He would do to deliver the Jews?

 

Show from scripture what is meant by 'saved'.

 

Though I don't understand the point of your question... here are a few:

Mark 16:16 - 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
-->Saved = The opposite of condemned.

John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
3:16 “For God so loved ithe world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
-->Saved = Entering the Kingdom of God, Eternal life, Not perishing, not being condemned.

Acts 2:47 - And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
--> Context makes it clear that "saved" here referred to the many who were believing the news about Jesus and joining the new church.

Rom. 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
--> Saved = spared from the wrath of God that every person's sin deserves.

I Cor. 18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
--> Saved = the opposite of perishing

Eph. 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; cit is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
--> "Saved" Includes being made alive in Christ (regeneration), given a place in heaven someday and a promise of spiritual riches.

I Thess. 2:14 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea. For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind 16 by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved—so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them at last!
--> Here Jews were actually hindering the gospel from being preached to the gentiles...which paul says they needed to hear "that they might be saved".

SO I ask you...what was paul so concerned about if the gentiles might be saved without hearing his message?

-Andy

 

double post-delete

 

You apparently insert eternal consequences into the passage, as is the norm with the 'gospel means' folks. Show from scripture that eternal consequences is the meaning here.

See http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1687008#post1687008

Our little finite minds can't even begin to fathom infinity, yet hoi polloi tosses it around like it's a throw pillow. You all will insert eternal consequences into a passage on a whim.

Jn 3:16 is a statement of fact, not an invitation.

"...those who were being saved"; read 'entering the kingdom' of Christ here on earth.

Sozo in this instance may well be intended in the eternal sense. Eternal salvation, in which man is totally passive, is accomplished solely by God. Man is passive in eternal salvation [the birth from above].

Again, you presume eternal consequences to be meant here when it is not. The literal rendering is 'those being saved' [delivered], and denotes an ongoing affair in the believers life (work out your own salvation because it is God that is working within you), not a one time event. Take note in the 2nd chapter that this preaching is foolishness to the natural man because it requires the Spirit [within] for one to receive it. The natural man has not been born of the Spirit.

Verse 5 is another place that I believe sozo may be intended in the eternal sense, but irregardless, it's made very clear that it is the gift of God, and not something from within ourselves (that no flesh should glory before God; But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, 1 Cor 1:29,30])

So the Jews (or anyone else for that matter) had the power to prevent God from regenerating from above? And sending them to hell? You're once again inserting eternal consequences into the text where it is not.

And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven: but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8:11,12

Paul desperately desired that his kinsman would be 'saved into' the kingdom of heaven here on earth. You're once again inserting eternal consequences where it is not intended.

 

-True, in many passages it is not clear what is meant by "saved" or "condemned" or "perish," but it does mean something, and as you said, there are a few passages where there is eternal meanings attached. The lack of an explicit eternal definition does not automatically mean there is only an earthly consequence.

-I never said it was an invitation, but it does say were were saved from "perishing". What is the perishing?

-Regarding Christ's Kingdom, He said "My kingdom is not of this world."

-This is odd, but I believe gets at the heart of your position. So you believe that for ETERNAL SALVATION, God simply regenerates people apart from any gospel message? If so, I have 2 questions:
1. Do you believe God simply chooses some people to save this way, and the others are not saved...or that everyone will be saved?
2. What is the "non-eternal salvation" that you are distinguishing between?

-No, I don't believe that the Jews could ultimately stop God from saving anyone, but they were preventing Paul from getting them the message that they needed to be saved. The question remains (and as you say, is unanswered by this passage)... "Saved from what?"

 

no banjo, though I have fiddled (pun intended) around with violin and mandolin.

 

It's probably eternal, it's contrasted with eternal life in the passage, although I believe life or eternal life is used in the qualitative sense in other places also, as is 'perishing' in this temporal realm, example Heb 6:4-6.

1 Jn 5:1 & 15 is a reiteration of Jn 3:16.

The very first words of preaching that came from the mouths of Christ and John the Baptist was ___________________ [fill in the blank]

Yes.

If by saved you mean obtain the free gift gift of eternal life [eternal salvation, regeneration, the spiritual birth from above], only the elect who were in Christ before the foundation of the world will receive it, “who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

2. What is the "non-eternal salvation" that you are distinguishing between?

Gospel salvation, a covenant relationship with God in this realm, comes from obedience to the gospel. Again, only the elect who were in Christ before the foundation of the world, and receive Him, have the power to enter into this relationship with Him.

I submit this essay, "Born Again: The Doctrine of Effectual Calling", by Elder Michael L Gowens, for your perusal.

Delivered from darkness into the glorious light of the gospel, the sweet benefits of the joy, peace, and righteousness and fellowship with the Saints, which is the kingdom of God, and which comes only from obedience to the gospel.

 

Yes, this is what I believe. You have given an excellent example from the story of Esther because, as you say, of how Mordecai told Esther God could find a way without her. So I believe that if a soul seeks God through natural revelation in a totally heathen place with no Christians, God will at some point before that person's death send someone to them with the Gospel.

In this regard, Matt. 7:7-8 is important to my thinking. "Seek and ye shall find." I believe that can be interpreted in the way we are discussing: a lost soul who seeks, though there is no one to give them the Gospel, will be sent a witness.

I suspect this has happened much more often in history than we think. There is archaelogical evidence of one such event in Japan hundreds of years before even the Catholics came in the 16th century. There is a tomb with a cross carved into the stone. I suspect the tomb is that of a Nestorian missionary, but the locals have a strange legend it was Christ Himself. At any rate, here is a BBC article about it: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/5326614.stm

 

So let me get this straight. Here I am, a 59 year old missionary in Japan since 1981. (At a guess, longer than you've been alive.) And on this thread you accuse me twice of not believing in the omnipotence of God, but that's not disrespect. And you flat out tell me I don't believe the Bible, but that's not disrespect. And when I ask twice for clarification, but you ignore me, that's not disrespect. And when I take your lack of reply for assent to my point and mistakenly misrepresent your position, you accuse me of slander, but that's not disrespect. And now when I, as a veteran missionary, object to your disrespect then you say I am once again slandering you.

Does that about sum up your position here?

 

I would agree with your belief in the effectual calling of those elect who God predestined before the foundation of the earth, However I believe that the effect of that calling is that the person is enabled to have faith in the gospel message that he has heard, or read, and understood. So in this case, I would also disagree with Mr. Japan and others who speak of those unbelievers who "seek God". Romans 3:10 says "there is none that seeks God" ...apart from the holy spirit's drawing.

I still do not see how you can see two different "salvations", one eternal in which man is passive, not even needing to hear about Christ, and one earthly relationship with God that is apparenlty the result of obedience.

 

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Matthew 28:18-20)
--Sounds pretty straight forward to me.

Can you please quote where someone said that God was "showing off."

The solution to that problem, AIC, is for you to obey the Great Commission and go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature as God has commanded you. I have been a missionary for about as long as John has and have been in some of the darkest nations of the world spiritually speaking. I don't regret it one bit. I believe it was A.B. Simpson that once said: "No one has the right to hear the gospel twice until all have heard the gospel once." Do you believe that?
God never called anyone to stay home; but he commanded every Christian to go into all the world. Have you obeyed Him?

God's "party line" is to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. What are you doing about it?

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation. It is to be preached to all nations. That is for the "scripture guys."

If YOU don't tell them, their blood will be on YOUR hands. It is your responsibility to obey the Great Commission. Are you doing that? What are you doing about it?

Not my answer. I am on the mission field all the time, no matter where I am. What about you? Do you care about the lost? What are you doing about it?

Are you suggesting that Paul was one that kept the traditions of men.
Paul was an apostle, a missionary, one who went on three different missionary journeys and in doing so established over 100 churches. The Bible commands us to go, preach the gospel, baptize those that are saved, establish churches. Do you do that? Or are you failing your Lord?

God works according to His Word.
When He ascended into heaven he left the salvation of the souls of the world in the hands of 12 men. He had no back up plan.

 

One of these days I'll get me a 12 string. Fell in love with the sound when I was a teen and heard the Byrds--but never got one.

I don't say that anyone seeks God without the Holy Spirit's work. I believe the Holy Spirit can draw people to seek Christ through natural revelation.

 

Go back and look. I did not say what you think. And once again, I asked twice what you believed, and you blew me off twice. That's disrespect.

So you deny that you've accused me of not believing in God's omnipotence and not believing in Scripture, is that correct?

Then act your age.