Regarding those who have never heard...

[DHK]

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just wondering if this could be an example of God still confirming jesus and His Gospel by doing things like we see in Acts, and once established, no more required to be doing them any more?

Also, since a believer in DoG, would see this as part of the process God would use to make sure that His elect would receive the Gospel of Christ and get saved by grace of God!

And we ALL can agere its salvation by the atoning death of Jesus upon Cross that saves us, and its by faith that grace is applied towards us!

I would rather stick with what Scripture says.
First, the Book of Acts was a book of transition as far as the Church was concerned. It is, exactly what it is called. "The Book of the Acts of the Apostles." We don't do the same acts that the Apostles did.

Now look at Scripture.
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
--In the past, that is in the OT, God spoke through the prophets. How? In different ways and at different times. The ways in which he spoke then were visions, dreams, an audible voice, theophanies, etc.

But in verse two the author tells us how he speaks to us now. And that is through his Son. His Son is revealed through the Word of God. Everything that we need to know about Jesus Christ is in the Scriptures. The visions and dreams were methods given to the OT prophets. God doesn't use those methods any longer. He uses his Word. That is what the Bible itself teaches us.

 

[freeatlast]

I just a few minutes ago had a brother in my office who told me about a man in his church who had a dream a couple of weeks ago. In this dream he had an automobile accident and saw his head rolling down the road after the collision. The following Sunday he responded to the invitation in church and got saved. His wife and two daughters also received Christ and were saved.

WOW!!! Four people who got saved because of a dream. Of course they heard the gospel too, and responded to the invitaiton to receive Christ, ... but it all started with a dream.

Yes God can and will use many things to get us to listen. For those who do not believe that God can awaken someone with a dream or a vision so that they will listen to the word then that is fine as long as the person comes to Christ in the end. Those who disbelieve do not thwart the hand of God.

 

[JesusFan]

I would rather stick with what Scripture says.
First, the Book of Acts was a book of transition as far as the Church was concerned. It is, exactly what it is called. "The Book of the Acts of the Apostles." We don't do the same acts that the Apostles did.

Now look at Scripture.
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
--In the past, that is in the OT, God spoke through the prophets. How? In different ways and at different times. The ways in which he spoke then were visions, dreams, an audible voice, theophanies, etc.

But in verse two the author tells us how he speaks to us now. And that is through his Son. His Son is revealed through the Word of God. Everything that we need to know about Jesus Christ is in the Scriptures. The visions and dreams were methods given to the OT prophets. God doesn't use those methods any longer. He uses his Word. That is what the Bible itself teaches us.

Agree with you that God prominent/main/normal way is through the Bible and the Gospel message, but still see NO biblical reason why God could not use those other means IF He chose to for a specific reason and purpose, to testify to jesus!

 

[Paco]

They didn't get saved because of a dream. They got saved in spite of a dream. It seems to me that it is evident that the Holy Spirit had already been working in their hearts. It was just a matter of time before they responded. The dream was inconsequential.

No. I do not agree with you at all. The dream was not inconsequential, rather, it was the catalyst that got everything moving. Perhaps God was already working in their hearts, I can agree with that part, but the dream is what brought things to a head and this man acted and influenced his wife and children to get saved too.

Hey, a man in the New Testament saw a vision and it led to his whole household getting saved. The woman in John 4 told related how Christ "told me of all I ever did" and many of the Samaritans believed on Christ. God uses miracles, signs and wonders to arrest the attention of people and prepare them to receive the word of the gospel. It is the preaching of the word that produces faith for people to call on the name of Christ Jesus for salvation, but miracles get their attention so they will listen to the word.

 

[Paco]

I would rather stick with what Scripture says.
First, the Book of Acts was a book of transition as far as the Church was concerned. It is, exactly what it is called. "The Book of the Acts of the Apostles." We don't do the same acts that the Apostles did.

Now look at Scripture.
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
--In the past, that is in the OT, God spoke through the prophets. How? In different ways and at different times. The ways in which he spoke then were visions, dreams, an audible voice, theophanies, etc.

But in verse two the author tells us how he speaks to us now. And that is through his Son. His Son is revealed through the Word of God. Everything that we need to know about Jesus Christ is in the Scriptures. The visions and dreams were methods given to the OT prophets. God doesn't use those methods any longer. He uses his Word. That is what the Bible itself teaches us.

If you will check up on it, perhaps you will see that Christ set prophets in His Church. The ministry of the prophet was not limited to the Old Testament. Also, even after the resurrection of Christ, God continued to work through visions and dreams. Don't you remember Peter saying "The Spirit bade me go..."??? Paul, on the ship in the midst of the storm, said that the angel of God stood by him and gave him a message from God. There is no passage of Scripture that tells us that God no longer uses visions, dreams, angels, etc to speak to His people.

Christ is the Logos, the total of the revelation of God, but that does not mean that God has ceased to speak to His people in various ways. God is not silent, He is still speaking. The PRIMARY way He speaks is through His Word, but He also speaks through and by the Holy Spirit, and other was too.

 

[DHK]

Christ is the Logos, the total of the revelation of God, but that does not mean that God has ceased to speak to His people in various ways. God is not silent, He is still speaking. The PRIMARY way He speaks is through His Word, but He also speaks through and by the Holy Spirit, and other was too.

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; (Hebrews 1:1-2)

God speaks today through His Son. His Son is revealed through His Word.
God's revelation is closed. The canon is closed. There is no more revelation being given by the Lord today. All that we have is contained in the Word of God. God does not give any other revelation today.

The very first distinctive of Baptists is that the Bible is our final authority in all matters of faith and practice. In matters concerning revelation it is our only source. We are not like Mormons who have another source of revelation (the Book of Mormon).
We are not like the Charismatics who believe that God still speaks today through visions and dreams. God speaks only through His Word. He has spoken, as it says in Heb.1:2. There is nothing more that God is revealing in these days.

 

[Amy.G]

God speaks only through His Word. He has spoken, as it says in Heb.1:2. There is nothing more that God is revealing in these days.

Are you saying that God does not speak to individuals? Not to give new revelations to the church, but to reveal things on a personal basis to an individual?

Here is a testimony by a young man that I know personally. He had a personal encounter with Christ.

Lion King Ministries

He is not charismatic. He is a Baptist.

 

[DHK]

Are you saying that God does not speak to individuals? Not to give new revelations to the church, but to reveal things on a personal basis to an individual?

Here is a testimony by a young man that I know personally. He had a personal encounter with Christ.

Lion King Ministries

He is not charismatic. He is a Baptist.

I can't believe you posted this link.

Andy miraculously survived a terrifying mountain lion attack at Roxborough State Park on April 30, 1998. After surviving the incredible attack, Andy received several dozen stitches to his face, neck, chest, stomach, shoulders and legs. Andy set a record at Swedish Hospital in Englewood, Colorado by requiring 70 staples to close his head wounds

Amy! he had a personal encounter with a mountain lion, not Christ! There is a difference.

The only way a person can be saved is through the gospel (not mountain lions).
The gospel is in God's revelation--the Scriptures: the Bible.
There is no other revelation (other than general revelation) than the Scriptures.
The gospel is the power of God unto salvation.

 

[freeatlast]

I can't believe you posted this link.

Amy! he had a personal encounter with a mountain lion, not Christ! There is a difference.

The only way a person can be saved is through the gospel (not mountain lions).
The gospel is in God's revelation--the Scriptures: the Bible.
There is no other revelation (other than general revelation) than the Scriptures.
The gospel is the power of God unto salvation.

In the interview he does claim to have had a personal encounter with Jesus Christ.

 

[Amy.G]

In the interview he does claim to have had a personal encounter with Jesus Christ.

Thank you. At least you read it. And it led him to salvation through the gospel.

I know this young man personally. He is the son in law of my best friend. He was in my home just this past Saturday night. He is not a flake. He is very down to earth, a wonderful husband and father and I have no reason and no right to question his experience.

 

[DHK]

Thank you. At least you read it. And it led him to salvation through the gospel.

I know this young man personally. He is the son in law of my best friend. He was in my home just this past Saturday night. He is not a flake. He is very down to earth, a wonderful husband and father and I have no reason and no right to question his experience.

I am very skeptical when a person bases their salvation on an experience. I dug deeper and found more of his testimony:

My fight was done. The lion was back for the final kill and there was nothing more I could do. I glanced again over my right shoulder and expected to see the deadly stare of my tormentor one final time. Instead, I was given a sudden glimpse of Heaven. The peaceful forgiving face of the Lord was in plain view where once the lion had been. The canopy thinned and the empty trail lightened.

I am positive this was divine intervention. For the first time since I saw the lion, I felt safe. Or should I say, saved? I felt overwhelming peace. I felt secure as though I got picked up and told, "I got you son...I got you. You want a second chance in life? Then start living for me

There is no salvation in this experience; no gospel; no repentance; no faith in Christ; absolutely nothing that is remotely close to believing the gospel.
During WWI soldiers in the trenches turned to God when they saw bombs falling all around them. It is hard to be an atheist in the trenches of death. That is true for anyone.

I am not denying that he may be a Christian. But I am skeptical about linking salvation to a mountain lion. Growing up in America no doubt he had heard the gospel a number of times before. His body was pumped full of adrenalin. He knew he needed the Lord. When he was saved (if he was) I don't know. But one is only saved through Christ, via the preaching of the gospel. The Bible makes that clear.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Romans 1:16)

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (1 Corinthians 1:18)

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; (1 Corinthians 1:23)

For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. (1 Corinthians 2:2)

 

[freeatlast]

Thank you. At least you read it. And it led him to salvation through the gospel.

I know this young man personally. He is the son in law of my best friend. He was in my home just this past Saturday night. He is not a flake. He is very down to earth, a wonderful husband and father and I have no reason and no right to question his experience.

Yes there is no question that God uses many things to awake the sleeping soul so that they will open their hearts to hear the gospel and call on His Son unto salvation.

 

[John of Japan]

Let me add one item more to the historical record of God having sent His missionary servants to seeking souls. Here is a story I did once here on the BB about 8th century to Japan missionary Rimitsu: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthre...hlight=Rimitsu

 

[Amy.G]

I am very skeptical when a person bases their salvation on an experience.

And that is your right. I don't believe everything I hear either. We are to test the spirits whether they be of God.

At the same time, I have no right to question what someone has experienced unless it contradicts the word of God. I don't see that in Andy's testimony.

We all have had experiences that led us to Christ. Mine were different than yours and yours different than someone else's, but God uses our circumstances to bring us to Him. Now Andy could have disregarded God altogether and said it was just luck that he was saved from the lion that day, but He gives God the glory and that is what makes his testimony believable.

 

[freeatlast]

At the moment of salvation we all have to come to Christ the same way. Repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. There just is no exceptions in that. That heart is brought about by and through the word of God, but it is not limited to the word only. Like Paul who had to have a vision before he could hear, God decides who and how such things take place to bring a person to the saving knowledge of His Son.
Those who never hear perish because they are without the word. Dreams and visions do not save. Even if the dead were raise some will not believe. It takes the word of God, but dreams and visions are a tool that God clearly has used and can use to prepare the hearts of men to receive the word of God unto salvation.
While the greatest blessing to to believe and not see it is none the less a blessing to be saved no matter what it takes.

 

[DHK]

And that is your right. I don't believe everything I hear either. We are to test the spirits whether they be of God.

At the same time, I have no right to question what someone has experienced unless it contradicts the word of God. I don't see that in Andy's testimony.

We all have had experiences that led us to Christ. Mine were different than yours and yours different than someone else's, but God uses our circumstances to bring us to Him. Now Andy could have disregarded God altogether and said it was just luck that he was saved from the lion that day, but He gives God the glory and that is what makes his testimony believable.

First, I didn't deny his salvation.
But I did deny that he was saved through an experience with no gospel.
It is quite possible that such a dramatic experience brought conviction upon him that shortly after he put his faith and trust in Christ. If that is his testimony it would be more believable.

A second observation: I would not go on the Oprah Winfrey program if you paid me, not even if there was an opportunity to preach the gospel. She has nothing but demons on that show for her religion is a demon-inspired religion. To share the same platform with her is just plain wrong. Read 2Cor.6:14-17.

 

[JesusFan]

First, I didn't deny his salvation.
But I did deny that he was saved through an experience with no gospel.
It is quite possible that such a dramatic experience brought conviction upon him that shortly after he put his faith and trust in Christ. If that is his testimony it would be more believable.

Just curious, how much of the Gospel did paul hear and believe while getting saved by God? wasn't that basically an encounter/experience with God?

A second observation: I would not go on the Oprah Winfrey program if you paid me, not even if there was an opportunity to preach the gospel. She has nothing but demons on that show for her religion is a demon-inspired religion. To share the same platform with her is just plain wrong. Read 2Cor.6:14-17.

By that philosophy, Elijah would NOT have been confronting prophets of baal, or Apostle paul confronting those on mars Hill, or the Christians confronting black magic users in Ephesus!

 

[DHK]

By that philosophy, Elijah would NOT have been confronting prophets of baal, or Apostle paul confronting those on mars Hill, or the Christians confronting black magic users in Ephesus!

There is a difference between confronting and cooperating. Sharing the same stage is cooperating. He didn't confront her for her ungodly New Age religion, did he? That is what Elijah and Paul would have done. Look at what Elijah said to the prophets of Baal and how he treated them. Not very hospitable was he?

 

[JesusFan]

There is a difference between confronting and cooperating. Sharing the same stage is cooperating. He didn't confront her for her ungodly New Age religion, did he? That is what Elijah and Paul would have done. Look at what Elijah said to the prophets of Baal and how he treated them. Not very hospitable was he?

I agree with you!

just thought you were saying NOT showing up, period!

 

[John of Japan]

I agree with you!

just thought you were saying NOT showing up, period!

I certainly wouldn't be on either of those shows. Being there says to many that you approve. And no doubt the young man is sincere, but I'd be flat out embarrassed if the only endorsements on my ministry website were those two characters, two notorious unbelievers.

No endorsements from preachers or believers? No doctrinal statement? No statement of the Gospel? That website is extremely inadequate as a ministry website, and I agree with DHK that, though the young man is doubtless saved, that is not a salvation testimony on the website.