-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Perfect children
- Thread starter Cypress
- Start date
freeatlast
New Member
Yes, Until they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Last edited by a moderator:
Many on the forum use a baby's selfishness or his struggling with a sibling, or resisting a parents wishes as some kind of proof of original sin . If this were so, these actions would not be expected to be present in the sinless Adams offspring, or would they. If they performed as all children do, would it not be considered sin since they had no knowledge of good and evil independent of God.
While this is by no means an original question, it had never crossed my mind until deep into the thread on origin of the doctrine of original sin.
While this is by no means an original question, it had never crossed my mind until deep into the thread on origin of the doctrine of original sin.
freeatlast
New Member
You are in to total speculation and do not have a shred of scripture to formulate an opinion which has absolutely no substance of importance since this all never happened.
A moot question. The fall happened before they had children.
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that is was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
This verse reveals Eve's nature before the fall. Did she have fleshly desires? YES. She desired the fruit because it looked good for food, it would satisfy her hunger. It was pleasant to the eyes, she had the same lust of the eyes that we do when a man looks at pornography. It appealed to her pride, she desired it because it would make her wise.
Now, how would you describe these desires Eve had BEFORE she actually took the fruit and ate it? Aren't these desires exactly what we call the sin nature?
So, Adam and Eve were no different than us, they had the same fleshly desires and temptations we have. If a person is honest, they have to conclude Adam and Eve had a sin nature BEFORE the fall. And their children would have had the same fleshly desires.
The difference is that after they ate the tree of knowledge of good and evil they acquired knowledge. They realized and were made aware they had sinned and therefore were convicted of sin and spiritually died. This is
why God told them "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Gen 2:17)
Adam and Eve had what many call a "sin nature" BEFORE the fall. They clearly had fleshly lusts and desires as revealed by scripture.
And yet, God said they were VERY GOOD. (Gen 1:31)
This verse reveals Eve's nature before the fall. Did she have fleshly desires? YES. She desired the fruit because it looked good for food, it would satisfy her hunger. It was pleasant to the eyes, she had the same lust of the eyes that we do when a man looks at pornography. It appealed to her pride, she desired it because it would make her wise.
Now, how would you describe these desires Eve had BEFORE she actually took the fruit and ate it? Aren't these desires exactly what we call the sin nature?
So, Adam and Eve were no different than us, they had the same fleshly desires and temptations we have. If a person is honest, they have to conclude Adam and Eve had a sin nature BEFORE the fall. And their children would have had the same fleshly desires.
The difference is that after they ate the tree of knowledge of good and evil they acquired knowledge. They realized and were made aware they had sinned and therefore were convicted of sin and spiritually died. This is
why God told them "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Gen 2:17)
Adam and Eve had what many call a "sin nature" BEFORE the fall. They clearly had fleshly lusts and desires as revealed by scripture.
And yet, God said they were VERY GOOD. (Gen 1:31)
mcdirector
Active Member
It is indeed a moot question, but we know the correct answer nevertheless. The children would have the same fleshly lusts and desires that Adam and Eve had BEFORE the fall.
freeatlast
New Member
Your assumption is wrong as scripture says that Eve ate because she was deceived (1Tim 2:14). Adam was not and ate out of choice. The original creation was not without personal will. They had to choose to believe God or not believe but that does not mean they had indwelling sin in their lives and we know that they were alive to God until their fall.
The difference today is that those born after them receive their parents fallen state.
freeatlast
New Member
That was not the question in the OP It was, would they be born innocent and they would be, but there is something else they would have had and that is life. That is not the case today.
KJV; Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
NIV; Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
That would not and could not have been said if children were born before the fall.
Last edited by a moderator:
The scriptures do not say we are born dead.
Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
The scriptures say man is made upright, not dead. And the word "they" is plural, showing this is speaking of all men.
Psa 139:13 Thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
David said he was covered by God in his mother's womb, he said he was fearfully and wonderfully made, and calls this work marvellous.
Hardly the words to describe a filthy little sinner. How is being made a filthy sinner wonderful? How is being made a filthy sinner marvellous?
Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
The scriptures say man is made upright, not dead. And the word "they" is plural, showing this is speaking of all men.
Psa 139:13 Thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
David said he was covered by God in his mother's womb, he said he was fearfully and wonderfully made, and calls this work marvellous.
Hardly the words to describe a filthy little sinner. How is being made a filthy sinner wonderful? How is being made a filthy sinner marvellous?
I agree with you Winman......my wild speculations on a moot point are meant to bring us to consider just this point. None of us can picture infants/children behaving any differently than they do. Although, having raised two, I have wished they would have a time or two.
Last edited by a moderator:
I have eight children, from 35 years to 9 years. I am not an expert on children, but I am certainly no novice either.
What many overlook is that the scriptures clearly reveal Adam and Eve had fleshly desires before the fall. They could be tempted by these desires, and in fact that is exactly what happened.
These fleshly lusts and desires are what many call the sin nature. But God did not call them sinful in this nature, he called them very good.
It is not our fleshly lusts and desires that makes us evil, it is acting upon these desires. Adam and Eve did not become sinful until they actually ate the forbidden fruit.
But there is more than that, a person has to know what they are doing to commit evil. When Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, it gave them knowledge to distinguish between good and evil. This is not evil, because God said, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: (Gen 3:22). So, knowing good and evil is not evil, as God has this attribute.
However, knowing good and evil made man RESPONSIBLE, just as we hold someone who has reached 18 years responsible for their actions and are tried as ADULTS if they commit a crime. But we do not prosecute a 3 year old if he steals candy, because we all know he does not have the maturity to truly understand evil.
Last edited by a moderator:
Romans 5: 12-14 shows clearly that death, the penalty of sin, is visited upon those who have never exercised a personal or conscious choice. Sin exists in the case of infants prior to moral consciousness, and therefore in the nature, as distinguished from the personal activity. It is therefore certan, by many scriptures, that a sinful, guilty and condemnable nature belongs to ALL mankind.
Cheers,
Jim
Cheers,
Jim
Then how could Adam and Eve physically lived forever if they had eaten of the tree of life?
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
If sin caused physical death, then why was it necessary for God to drive Adam and Eve out of the garden and to set angels guard over the tree of life?
If Adam and Eve would have eaten of the tree of life, they would have physically lived forever. This shows that sin does not cause physical death.
Adam and Eve always had mortal bodies, else they would not need to eat. Sin has nothing to do with this, they had to eat before they sinned.
However, the tree of life has properties that heals and reverses aging.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
See also Rev 22:14.
freeatlast
New Member
Please explain David's words;
KJV; Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
NIV; Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
I will explain it like the Jewish theologians explained it for 1500 years before Augustine (and still hold), that David was saying he was born into a sinful world. The Jews have never believed men are born with a sin nature, or that Adam's sin was transmitted to his children.
This idea has popped up at times, and this is directly addressed in Ezekiel 18. The Jews had an erroneous proverb that said, "The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?" (Eze 18:2)
God refutes this and repeatedly says the sons shall not bear the iniquity of their father and vice versa.
You are teaching exactly what God refutes in Eze 18:20. If God caused Adam's sin to pass on us, he would directly be contradicting his own words.
I am sorry to learn that you prefer non-Christian commentators to Christian ones. For myself, I would sooner trust the word of God which the Jews rejected, namely the New Testament and Romans 5 in particular.
Rom 5:6. 'For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.' Paul has already established (Chapt. 3) that all men are sinners. Here h also says that we had no strength to make ourselves right with God. Since brute strength is not required to be right with God, 'strength' here must mean 'ability.' Where did this lack of ability come from?
v12. 'Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.....' There was no sin before Adam fell, and death came through Adam's sin (Gen 3:17-19). But it came, not just to Adam, but to all men, 'because all sinned.' Does this mean that all men die because of their own sin? Yes, it certainly means that, but it means something more.
v17. 'For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one......'
v18. 'For as through one man's judgement came to all men resulting in condemnation.....'
v19. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience (cf. Phil 2:8) many will be made righteous.' Do notice how many times the Holy Spirit makes Paul repeat himself here. Perhaps it's because it's important.
Adam was our covenant head (or 'representative head' if you prefer). He acted on our behalf. When he fell, we fell and were constituted sinners by his disobedience. We owe God a debt of obedience which Adam transacted on our behalf and which we are by no means able to pay.
However Christ prevailed where Adam failed, and He also is a covenant Head of all those whom God has given Him (John 6:39 etc.). He has paid the penalty which Adam's fall invoked and He has wrought a positive righteousness for His people by His perfect obedience to the Father's will.
Oh loving wisdom of our God,
When all was sin and shame,
A second Adam to the fight
And to the rescue came.
Not at all. Paul says repeatedly that Adam's sin is passed on to us. However, no one but Adam and the Lord Jesus is our covenant head, and therefore no one's sin is passed on to us but Adam's and no one's righteousness except our Lord's. therefore Ezek 18 is (of course) entirely in line with Romans 5.
Finally, if we deny that Adam's sin is imputed to us, how can we suppose that the obedience of the Lord Jesus will be imputed to us?
This is pure supposition. Do you suppose that we won't eat in heaven (Isaiah 25:6-8; Rev 19:9)?Winman said:
One last thing; if Adam and Eve had a 'sin nature' before th Fall, God thought that it was 'very good' (Gen 1:31).
I must say that I had supposed that the pelagianism of Oberlin theology and Finneyism were things of the past.
Steve
freeatlast
New Member
Why would you go to the lost to get an interpretation of the bible? By the way I don't like the NIV either but so many use it today I just put it in.
So are you going to stick with the interpretation of the lost since these same people reject Jesus as Lord and the only way to heaven? Do you agree with them on that also?
By the way the sons certainly do not bear the iniquity of the father, and all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
The fact that babies die according to that verse is proof they are under sin.
All have sinned
Last edited by a moderator: