Perfect children

[Mexdeaf]

There was nothing wrong with the fruit other than it was forbidden- as all temptations- it was good in it's proper place, desirable, and promised more than it could deliver. Eve was deceived- Adam sinned by choice.

Romans 5:12- Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.

As to the children, they would have been born with the same nature as their parents. Some would call it innocence.

As many have said, it is a moot point.

 

[Winman]

Your assumption is wrong as scripture says that Eve ate because she was deceived (1Tim 2:14). Adam was not and ate out of choice. The original creation was not without personal will. They had to choose to believe God or not believe but that does not mean they had indwelling sin in their lives and we know that they were alive to God until their fall.
The difference today is that those born after them receive their parents fallen state.

Yes, she was deceived and Adam was not, perhaps that is why the entry of sin into the world is blamed on Adam and not Eve.

That does not negate that Eve had fleshly desires before the fall, they are clearly described in Gen 3:6.

These fleshly lusts and desires that entice and tempt a person to sin are what we call the sin nature. Eve clearly had these qualities BEFORE the fall.

 

[Winman]

In response to Steve post #16;

You are very selective in Romans 5. If Adam's sin and death were unconditionally imputed to all men, then you would have to believe that justification and life are unconditionally imputed to all men because of Jesus's obedience.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men to justification of life.

Again, if sin and death are unconditionally imputed to all men because of Adam, this verse would teach that justification and life are unconditionally imputed to all men because of Jesus's obedience.

Furthermore, this verse clearly shows Paul is speaking of spiritual death in this chapter, not physical.

And the Jews were not always wrong, they got many things right. Jesus told the people to do what the Pharisees say, not what they do.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

In response to Steve post #16;

You are very selective in Romans 5.

I quoted several verses. They all repeat the same thing.

If Adam's sin and death were unconditionally imputed to all men, then you would have to believe that justification and life are unconditionally imputed to all men because of Jesus's obedience.
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men to justification of life.

Again, if sin and death are unconditionally imputed to all men because of Adam, this verse would teach that justification and life are unconditionally imputed to all men because of Jesus's obedience.

Not at all. All those for whom Adam is covenant head come under judgement. All those for whom Christ is covenant Head are justified. 'For as in Adam, All die, so in Christ all shall be made alive' (1Cor 15:22).

Furthermore, this verse clearly shows Paul is speaking of spiritual death in this chapter, not physical.

Only if you are so wrong-headed as to take it in isolation. Verse 12 taken in conjunction with Gen 3:17-19 clearly shows that physical death is also meant.

And the Jews were not always wrong, they got many things right. Jesus told the people to do what the Pharisees say, not what they do.

They were, and still are, unbelievers. They need our prayers, not our devotion.

Steve

 

[freeatlast]

In response to Steve post #16;

You are very selective in Romans 5. If Adam's sin and death were unconditionally imputed to all men, then you would have to believe that justification and life are unconditionally imputed to all men because of Jesus's obedience.
.

Exactly! Now you are beginning to get it. All who are descendants of Adam are condemned unconditionally as we are all in that line. All who are in Christ are saved unconditionally and only the elect are in that line. We are first born into Adam's line and born lost. We must be born again (second born) to get into the Line of Christ and be saved. All who are in the line of Christ are saved. Praise God you are getting it!
:thumbs:

 

[freeatlast]

Yes, she was deceived and Adam was not, perhaps that is why the entry of sin into the world is blamed on Adam and not Eve.

That does not negate that Eve had fleshly desires before the fall, they are clearly described in Gen 3:6.

These fleshly lusts and desires that entice and tempt a person to sin are what we call the sin nature. Eve clearly had these qualities BEFORE the fall.

You are assuming that God created people with sinful natures even though He did not. They had volition, but not a sin nature. However if you want to hold that Eve had a sin nature then you should be able to accept that every baby conceived also has one and is also lost.

 

[percho]

Because the Lamb had already been considered slain even before the man was created for some purpose relative to God and Satan the man was going to eat of the fruit that represented Satan instead of the fruit that represented God for God in man was beginning a new creation where there would be found no place for Satan which would require God to beget himself in the woman taken from the man pay the penalty for the works of Satan in man through death. Then the resurrected man who had been begotten of man could be resurrected with the promise of the hope (required faith by the one who died) of eternal life. Until that time man was cutoff from the tree of Life. This Life then could be given the dead in trespass and sin as a gift from God.

Adan and Eve were not going to eat of the tree of life for them to have done so would have hindered the plan of God.

This is just MHO.

 

[Iconoclast]

I am sorry to learn that you prefer non-Christian commentators to Christian ones. For myself, I would sooner trust the word of God which the Jews rejected, namely the New Testament and Romans 5 in particular.

Rom 5:6. 'For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.' Paul has already established (Chapt. 3) that all men are sinners. Here h also says that we had no strength to make ourselves right with God. Since brute strength is not required to be right with God, 'strength' here must mean 'ability.' Where did this lack of ability come from?

v12. 'Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.....' There was no sin before Adam fell, and death came through Adam's sin (Gen 3:17-19). But it came, not just to Adam, but to all men, 'because all sinned.' Does this mean that all men die because of their own sin? Yes, it certainly means that, but it means something more.

v17. 'For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one......'

v18. 'For as through one man's judgement came to all men resulting in condemnation.....'

v19. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience (cf. Phil 2:8) many will be made righteous.' Do notice how many times the Holy Spirit makes Paul repeat himself here. Perhaps it's because it's important.

Adam was our covenant head (or 'representative head' if you prefer). He acted on our behalf. When he fell, we fell and were constituted sinners by his disobedience. We owe God a debt of obedience which Adam transacted on our behalf and which we are by no means able to pay.

However Christ prevailed where Adam failed, and He also is a covenant Head of all those whom God has given Him (John 6:39 etc.). He has paid the penalty which Adam's fall invoked and He has wrought a positive righteousness for His people by His perfect obedience to the Father's will.

Oh loving wisdom of our God,
When all was sin and shame,
A second Adam to the fight
And to the rescue came.



Not at all. Paul says repeatedly that Adam's sin is passed on to us. However, no one but Adam and the Lord Jesus is our covenant head, and therefore no one's sin is passed on to us but Adam's and no one's righteousness except our Lord's. therefore Ezek 18 is (of course) entirely in line with Romans 5.

Finally, if we deny that Adam's sin is imputed to us, how can we suppose that the obedience of the Lord Jesus will be imputed to us?


This is pure supposition. Do you suppose that we won't eat in heaven (Isaiah 25:6-8; Rev 19:9)?

One last thing; if Adam and Eve had a 'sin nature' before th Fall, God thought that it was 'very good' (Gen 1:31).

I must say that I had supposed that the pelagianism of Oberlin theology and Finneyism were things of the past.

Steve

:laugh::laugh::laugh:....not here on the BB.....still alive!

 

[Iconoclast]

Exactly! Now you are beginning to get it. All who are descendants of Adam are condemned unconditionally as we are all in that line. All who are in Christ are saved unconditionally and only the elect are in that line. We are first born into Adam's line and born lost. We must be born again (second born) to get into the Line of Christ and be saved. All who are in the line of Christ are saved. Praise God you are getting it!
:thumbs:

:laugh::laugh:

 

[Winman]

Exactly! Now you are beginning to get it. All who are descendants of Adam are condemned unconditionally. All who are in Christ are saved unconditionally. We are born in Adam's line and born lost. We must be born again to get into the Line of Christ and be saved. All who are in the line of Christ are saved. Praise God you are getting it!
:thumbs:

Pure hogwash. You can't interpret the first occurance of "all men" in Rom 5:18 to mean 100% of men, and then interpret the second occurance of "all men" in the same verse to mean only SOME men.

And some here accuse me of violating proper hermenuetics!

You must believe people are stupid.

 

[freeatlast]

Pure hogwash. You can't interpret the first occurance of "all men" in Rom 5:18 to mean 100% of men, and then interpret the second occurance of "all men" in the same verse to mean only SOME men.

And some here accuse me of violating proper hermenuetics!

You must believe people are stupid.

Sure we can as that is what scripture teaches. All who are in Adam are lost. That means 100% of all people ever born are born lost. Also 100% of all who are in Christ are saved. That means 100% of everyone born again are saved.
By the way, you do violate proper hermeneutics if you reject what the scripture teaches on this.

 

[Iconoclast]

Sure we can as that is what scripture teaches. All who are in Adam are lost. That means 100% of all people ever born are born lost. Also 100% of all who are in Christ are saved. That means 100% of everyone born again are saved.
By the way, you do violate proper hermeneutics if you reject what the scripture teaches on this.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::laugh:

 

[Winman]

Sure we can as that is what scripture teaches. All who are in Adam are lost. That means 100% of all people ever born are born lost. Also 100% of all who are in Christ are saved. That means 100% of everyone born again are saved.
By the way, you do violate proper hermeneutics if you reject what the scripture teaches on this.

Baloney, if these verses are teaching sin and death are unconditionally imputed to 100% of men, then they are also teaching that justification and life are unconditionally imputed to 100% of men.

However, if judgment and death are conditional, then these verses make perfect sense, those who sin are judged guilty, and those who believe are justified.

This agrees with God's word that all men shall die for their OWN sin.

 

[freeatlast]

This agrees with God's word that all men shall die for their OWN sin.

I like Baloney once in a while if I have tomato, pickles and mayo on wheat. :laugh: Exactly, that is what I have been saying. For all have fallen under the law of sin in Adam. All who are in Christ fall under the law of Righteousness.
Let me ask you something. What sin after the fall causes man to be separated from God (to be lost)?

 

[Winman]

I like Baloney once in a while if I have tomato, pickles and mayo on wheat. :laugh: Exactly, that is what I have been saying. For all have fallen under the law of sin in Adam. All who are in Christ fall under the law of Righteousness.
Let me ask you something. What sin after the fall causes man to be separated from God (to be lost)?

Well, I do not believe God holds little children accountable until they are old enough to truly understand right from wrong before God. There is no specific age on this as people mature at different rates. God knows when someone is accountable. But once they reach this maturity and knowingly and willfully violate one of God's laws, ANY sin would condemn them, whether lying, stealing, disobeying their parents... whatever.

 

[freeatlast]

Well, I do not believe God holds little children accountable until they are old enough to truly understand right from wrong before God. There is no specific age on this as people mature at different rates. God knows when someone is accountable. But once they reach this maturity and knowingly and willfully violate one of God's laws, ANY sin would condemn them, whether lying, stealing, disobeying their parents... whatever.

I understand your belief. That is fine, but there is no scripture to explain how they escape. I think they do also but I cannot explain how and I certainly am not going to corrupt the scripture I do have to support a belief we that we have made up.

Now with that you named some things that you feel causes people to be lost. What about those before the law how were they lost?

 

[Winman]

FAL, the problem with your view is that you see sin as unconditionally imputed to people. People are sinners not because of any evil thing they have done, but simply for existing.

This is refuted by much scripture. Rom 9:11 tells us Esau and Jacob had DONE no evil in their mother's womb. But 2 Cor 5:10 tells us men will be judged for what they have DONE in their bodies, whether good or evil.

Adam and Eve had what you call a sin nature before the fall, they clearly had fleshly lusts and desires that are described in Gen 3:6. Eve had the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life BEFORE she ate the forbidden fruit. She was flesh. Yet God declared them "very good". It was only when they actually sinned that they became sinful.

 

[Winman]

I understand your belief. That is fine, but there is no scripture to explain how they escape. I think they do also but I cannot explain how and I certainly am not going to corrupt the scripture I do have to support a belief we that we have made up.

Now with that you named some things that you feel causes people to be lost. What about those before the law how were they lost?

Paul explains that in Romans 1 and 2. He says that all men have some knowledge of God and are without excuse. (Rom 1:18-32) In chapter 2 he tells us the Gentiles who do not have the law do by NATURE the things written in the law, showing the law is written on their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness. (Rom 2:14-15)

So, your question has clearly been answered in scripture.

 

[freeatlast]

FAL, the problem with your view is that you see sin as unconditionally imputed to people. People are sinners not because of any evil thing they have done, but simply for existing.

This is refuted by much scripture. Rom 9:11 tells us Esau and Jacob had DONE no evil in their mother's womb. But 2 Cor 5:10 tells us men will be judged for what they have DONE in their bodies, whether good or evil.

Adam and Eve had what you call a sin nature before the fall, they clearly had fleshly lusts and desires that are described in Gen 3:6. Eve had the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life BEFORE she ate the forbidden fruit. She was flesh. Yet God declared them "very good". It was only when they actually sinned that they became sinful.

You did not answer my question. What about those before the law was given? How did they sin without knowing the law?

 

[Winman]

You did not answer my question. What about those before the law was given? How did they sin without knowing the law?

I answered it, go back a post or two.

Men knew what sin was before the law, Shem and Japheth knew it was wrong to look on their father's nakedness. Pharoah knew it was wrong to have Abram's wife (Gen 12:18-20), God said the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was very grievous (Gen 18:20), Lot told the men at his door not to do wickedly (Gen 19:7)... I could give many more examples.

Men knew and understood sin LONG before the law.