Perfect children

[freeatlast]

It does not say sin was passed on men, it says death passed on all men FOR THAT all have sinned.

Death passes onto all men because all men sin.

You are interpreting this verse as Augustine did using a flawed Latin text that read;

"and so death passed upon all men, IN WHOM all have sinned"

IN WHOM was error. Scholars have written on this, look it up. IN WHOM led Augustine to believe that Adam's sin was passed on all men (as you believe), but scholars admit the Greek did not say this. Augustine based Original Sin almost exclusively on this one single FLAWED verse in the Latin text, as he did not know Greek well.

This is why I asked you to show me any version that says sin passed on men as the flawed Latin text said. You will not find IN WHOM in any of them, because it is not there in the Greek.

I am accepting what the scripture says and not trying to change it as you arew doing. I keep showing you and you keep dowing an end run. All have sinned. That is what is says.

 

[DHK]

Yes the law did have to be written to be applied to the person. That is what scripture says and no there was no law according to scripture.

"In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Was that a law (command) or not?
The Mosaic "law" was 10 commandments, often referred to as "The Law."
The words are synonymous in scripture.
Did Adam and Eve have a law to keep?

 

[percho]

"In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Was that a law (command) or not?
The Mosaic "law" was 10 commandments, often referred to as "The Law."
The words are synonymous in scripture.
Did Adam and Eve have a law to keep?

That is the written law. The law of God is spiritual. The written law was given to order to show you that you are transgressing the spiritual law which is and was.

In Galatians when discussing whether inheritance comes by works of the law or by promise, Paul says the written law was added 430 years after the promise was given because of transgressions. Man is a physical being made from the dust of the ground subject to death and rot. That is how the begotten son of God came subject to death and rot, to pay the penalty that brought death and rot, sin the transgression of the spiritual law.

Then the man who came in the flesh subject to death and rot would be resurrected from the dead by the God who had beget him as a new man spiritual eternal not subject to death and rot made to be fit to be subject to the spiritual law of God that in within him. Jesus is the firstborn from the dead as a spiritual man.

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul;
The last Adam a quickening spirit. Howbeit that not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

This chapter is about the resurrection of man from the dead Jesus the man child of God himself being the firstfruits thereof. He came as his figure the first man Adam, afterward, after the resurrection what was planted as a living soul was raised a quickening spirit. Jesus has the preeminence of how man becomes spirit born son of the living God.

But if the Spirit of him (God the Father) that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he (God the Father) that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his (God the Father) Spirit that dwelleth in you.
And declared the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Paul said, because the mind of the flesh [is] enmity to God, for to the law of God it doth not subject itself, YLT

 

[DHK]

That is the written law. The law of God is spiritual. The written law was given to order to show you that you are transgressing the spiritual law which is and was.

The only way in which the law is spiritual is that it shows us we are sinners and is a tool that leads us to Christ. However, the is still the law. It is spiritual because it was given by God to Moses. It still condemns.

In Galatians when discussing whether inheritance comes by works of the law or by promise, Paul says the written law was added 430 years after the promise was given because of transgressions. Man is a physical being made from the dust of the ground subject to death and rot. That is how the begotten son of God came subject to death and rot, to pay the penalty that brought death and rot, sin the transgression of the spiritual law.

Christ came as a man to suffer as a man. He was the God-man. God did not allow his body to suffer corruption. He rose from the dead three days after he was buried, and thus suffered no corruption. The disciples also helped in that in that they buried him with about 100 pounds of burial spices, and bound his body tightly so that it would be preserved for a long time. Christ conquered death on the cross. Death had no power over him.

The wages of sin is death. We still die. Those from Adam to Moses died. They died physically as a result of the curse. They died spiritually because of their sin nature. Unless they believed God and righteousness was imputed unto them (as in Noah's case) they would have perished.

Then the man who came in the flesh subject to death and rot would be resurrected from the dead by the God who had beget him as a new man spiritual eternal not subject to death and rot made to be fit to be subject to the spiritual law of God that in within him. Jesus is the firstborn from the dead as a spiritual man.

The Bible says that "his visage was not recognizable." He was so marred from the beatings that one could not tell it was Christ. In that sense his body suffered just like any other man's suffered. The difference is that he rose from the dead with a perfect body, and now sits at the right hand of God making intercession for us.

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul;
The last Adam a quickening spirit. Howbeit that not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

That is what Scripture says.

This chapter is about the resurrection of man from the dead Jesus the man child of God himself being the firstfruits thereof. He came as his figure the first man Adam, afterward, after the resurrection what was planted as a living soul was raised a quickening spirit. Jesus has the preeminence of how man becomes spirit born son of the living God.

Jesus never "became" a spirit. That is Mormonism.

But if the Spirit of him (God the Father) that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he (God the Father) that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his (God the Father) Spirit that dwelleth in you.
And declared the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Paul said, because the mind of the flesh [is] enmity to God, for to the law of God it doth not subject itself, YLT

That is a quote from Romans 8, that you have taken out of context. What has that got to do with anything here? We are in spiritual warfare. We need to subject our minds to God if we are to win this war.

I don't know what you are driving at. You seem to be derailing this thread. You are way off topic. The OP is:

What would Adam and Eves children been like if they (Adam and Eve) had not sinned?
Would they be born innocent......if so, until when?

What has the tangent that you are on have anything to do with the OP?

And IMO, for all intents and purposes, I believe the OP has been asked and answered.

 

[freeatlast]

"In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Was that a law (command) or not?
The Mosaic "law" was 10 commandments, often referred to as "The Law."
The words are synonymous in scripture.
Did Adam and Eve have a law to keep?

No place does the scripture refer to the garden command as law. You are trying to twist the intent of term law. There was no law between Adam and Moses.

 

[Winman]

No place does the scripture refer to the garden command as law. You are trying to twist the intent of term law. There was no law between Adam and Moses.

All men have law.

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which do not have the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

Those who sin without the law perish without the law. (vs. 12) But they have a law, They have;

#1 the law written in their hearts
#2 their conscience
#3 their thoughts accusing or excusing one another.

The men from Adam to Moses had these laws.

 

[DHK]

No place does the scripture refer to the garden command as law. You are trying to twist the intent of term law. There was no law between Adam and Moses.

Please do not take the "one word fits all" method of interpretation to Scripture. It is hermeneutically wrong. Cults use it. And many others who are just plain in error. What defines a word. Primarily context. Law has many meanings. It could, and does many times refer to just the Ten Commandments. Sometimes it refers to all of the Mosaic Law. Sometimes it refers to the Torah, or the first five books of Moses, and sometimes it may even refer to the entire OT, and sometimes it simply a synonym for a command, as in a law. Which definition fits best the context of the passage you are examining. There is no such thing as a "one word definition fits all passages." That is wrong. You cannot interpret the Bible like that, when a word has so many definitions.

There was indeed law before Moses.
Would it have been just for God to destroy the entire world in the Flood without any cause, without any Law. Then God is not a just God. You do not believe in a God of justice if what you say is true.

What did God say to Cain? He expected Cain to bring a worthy sacrifice and Cain disobeyed God, and went even further and committed murder, a sin against law. It is explained in 1John. "And we know that no murderer hath eternal life," referring back to Cain.

Gen.9:6 gives the law for capital punishment.
--There certainly was law. How can you deny such?

 

[freeatlast]

Please do not take the "one word fits all" method of interpretation to Scripture. It is hermeneutically wrong. Cults use it. And many others who are just plain in error. What defines a word. Primarily context. Law has many meanings. It could, and does many times refer to just the Ten Commandments. Sometimes it refers to all of the Mosaic Law. Sometimes it refers to the Torah, or the first five books of Moses, and sometimes it may even refer to the entire OT, and sometimes it simply a synonym for a command, as in a law. Which definition fits best the context of the passage you are examining. There is no such thing as a "one word definition fits all passages." That is wrong. You cannot interpret the Bible like that, when a word has so many definitions.

There was indeed law before Moses.
Would it have been just for God to destroy the entire world in the Flood without any cause, without any Law. Then God is not a just God. You do not believe in a God of justice if what you say is true.

What did God say to Cain? He expected Cain to bring a worthy sacrifice and Cain disobeyed God, and went even further and committed murder, a sin against law. It is explained in 1John. "And we know that no murderer hath eternal life," referring back to Cain.

Gen.9:6 gives the law for capital punishment.
--There certainly was law. How can you deny such?

There was no law prior to the Law of Moses.

 

[Winman]

All men have an inner sense of good and evil. It is not necessary to have a written law to discern right from wrong.

For the sake of argument, imagine there were no laws. You are walking down the street and a stranger approaches you and punches you in the mouth. Would you need a law to know this is wrong? No, your own innate sense of right and wrong would immediately recognize this as wrong behavior. We all have this sense of right and wrong.

You can go to the deepest jungle and find people who have never heard the word of God, but you will find they have rules or laws of conduct. This is the law written on the heart.

 

[DHK]

There was no law prior to the Law of Moses.

A statement without evidence is simply an opinion born out of the imagination of a man without thinking.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

It is simply a fact that all Ten Commandments may be found in the Bible before the giving of the law in Exodus 20. God's moral law is eternal (Psalm 119:89).

It might be supposed that Adam had no other law to obey save the single one of not eating from the forbidden tree, but that would be a simplistic view. Adam was under the Moral Law of God, the Ten Commandments, as a moment’s thought will confirm. Suppose Adam built an idol in the garden to worship, or suppose he strangled Eve! Would God have said, “Oh, that’s alright, Adam, just as long as you don’t eat the fruit!” The very thought is absurd. It is true that Adam could not have coveted his neighbour’s ox or his ass since he had no neighbours, but he certainly coveted that which God had denied to him and stole it to his own inestimable loss and that of his posterity. ‘Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned’ (Romans 5:12 ).

There is no doubt but that the Covenant of Works was a gracious covenant. God was under no obligation to do anything for Adam, yet He gave him a wife, placed him in a beautiful garden with only light tasks to perform (there were no weeds before the Fall- Gen 3:17-18 ) and gave him dominion over all the rest of creation. However, there is no mention of mercy in the covenant. Adam is warned, “In the day you eat of it, you shall surely die.” To put it another way, “Do this and live.” Adam’s privileges were dependant on his obedience. Yet he was well able to perform this obedience. God had made him entirely righteous; otherwise He could not have pronounced the whole of creation ‘very good’ (Gen 1:31 ).

Yet Adam was not in the most gracious state possible. Though he had been created sinless, he was still able to sin; he stood or fell by his own actions. This has led many theologians to postulate that Adam was on probation; had he not sinned, they say, God would have promoted him to a still more gracious position in which he would have been unable to sin. We read in Gen 2:9b of the ‘Tree of Life.’ It is suggested that at the end of their probation, Adam and Eve would have been permitted to eat from this tree and their eternal lives would have been assured. Certainly, after their fall, the way to the tree of life was lost to mankind (Gen 3:24 ) and is not heard of again until Rev 2:7 and 22:2 where it is seen as the reward for those who persevere, the very thing that Adam and Eve failed to do. This idea is quite attractive and may be correct, but we cannot insist upon it because it is a conjecture and is not clearly found in the word of God. If we want to remain true to the Baptist Confession, we must take all our doctrine from the Bible and eschew all conjecture.

From my blog. http://marprelate.wordpress.com/2009/09/05/the-covenants-part-1-the-covenant-of-works/

Steve

 

[percho]

Rom. 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.


Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

G3:17 And this I say, the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

G3:19 Why, then, the law? on account of the transgressions it was added.


The law is forever and is spiritual and was the law that was being transgressed against between Adam and Moses. The written law was added to show that the law of God was being transgressed against. All have broken the spiritual law of God.

 

[freeatlast]

All men have an inner sense of good and evil. It is not necessary to have a written law to discern right from wrong.

For the sake of argument, imagine there were no laws. You are walking down the street and a stranger approaches you and punches you in the mouth. Would you need a law to know this is wrong? No, your own innate sense of right and wrong would immediately recognize this as wrong behavior. We all have this sense of right and wrong.

You can go to the deepest jungle and find people who have never heard the word of God, but you will find they have rules or laws of conduct. This is the law written on the heart.

That has nothing to do with this conversation.

 

[freeatlast]

A statement without evidence is simply an opinion born out of the imagination of a man without thinking.

Exactly! And adding to scripture when scripture says there was no law is sin. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[DHK]

Exactly! And adding to scripture when scripture says there was no law is sin. :smilewinkgrin:

I challenge you to show me where the Scripture says that, not your interpretation of Scripture, but where Scripture actually says that. It doesn't!
(that is that there was no law between Adam and Moses)

 

[freeatlast]

I challenge you to show me where the Scripture says that, not your interpretation of Scripture, but where Scripture actually says that. It doesn't!
(that is that there was no law between Adam and Moses)

Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Challenge met. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[DHK]

Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Challenge met. :smilewinkgrin:

But sin was imputed.
For the wages of sin is death (Rom.6:23)
Sin was imputed and therefore there was law. The consequence of sin is death. We know that sin was imputed. The verse simply states sin is not imputed when there is no law. It does not state that there was no law during that period.

You have failed to meet the challenge.

 

[freeatlast]

But sin was imputed.
For the wages of sin is death (Rom.6:23)
Sin was imputed and therefore there was law. The consequence of sin is death. We know that sin was imputed. The verse simply states sin is not imputed when there is no law. It does not state that there was no law during that period.

You have failed to meet the challenge.

You keep trying to change God's word. It says;
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.
It was Adams sin that brought the death, not the sin of those after him.
There was no law between Adam and Moses. Babies die wihtout transgressions.

 

[DHK]

You keep trying to change God's word. It says;
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.
It was Adams sin that brought the death, not the sin of those after him.
There was no law between Adam and Moses. Babies die wihtout transgressions.

First, who said anything about babies? Stick with Scripture.
Second, you are reading into Scripture that which is not there--your ideas, your own pre-conceived notions etc. What does the verse really say?

(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (Romans 5:13)

Sin is not imputed when there is no law.
It does not say there was no law. You are reading that into Scripture. It does not say that. It does not teach that. The very fact that there was law is proven by the presence of both sin and death--the murder of Abel by the hand of Cain; the Flood, etc.

 

[freeatlast]

First, who said anything about babies? Stick with Scripture.
Second, you are reading into Scripture that which is not there--your ideas, your own pre-conceived notions etc. What does the verse really say?

(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (Romans 5:13)

Sin is not imputed when there is no law.
It does not say there was no law. You are reading that into Scripture. It does not say that. It does not teach that. The very fact that there was law is proven by the presence of both sin and death--the murder of Abel by the hand of Cain; the Flood, etc.

No I am saying what scripture says. There was no law from Adam to Moses. Yet there was sin but because of there being no law the sin was not imputed to the person yet they died which is proof that they are sinners before they have sin imputed to them. The same with a baby. The law does not make a person a sinner. Adam did. The law only exposes the person for what he already is. Until Moses there was no law to do that. There was from time to time certain commands or edicts given, but they were given to individuals not a nation and certainly not all mankind. The law of Moses is always the only law referred to as law in scripture.