What is saving faith?

This is simply not true! Look at the greatests types of the cross in the Old Testament - the offering up of Isaac by Abraham. God provided a SUBSTITUTE for Isaac NOT MERELY A REPRESENTATIVE. Look at Exodush 13:13 and the passover lamb IN THE PLACE OF the firstborn Son in Egypt. God provided a SUBSTITUTE not merely a representative. There is no way you can construe these types as MERELY representative. Indeed, the very nature of a SUBSTITUTE is to act as the persons representative but it not MERELY representation but actual substitution.

These were not simply representative but were clearly and undeniably SUBSTITUTIONARY!

That is simply not true! Substitution IS REPRESENTATION in the greatest sense of the word but not MERELY representation. Indeed, the voluntary SUBSTITUTION of Christ IN BEHALF of the sinner is the greatest expression of love the world has ever known and there is absolutely no injustice as the substitution was VOLUNTARY.

In a court of law it is the LAWYER that represents the accused and the LAWYER's personal righteousness HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GUILT OR INNOCENSE OR WITH THE PUNISHMENT!

You talk about INJUSTICE! Any judge in any court in America in the world that justified an accused on the basis of His REPRESENTATIVE would be laughed to scorn and kicked off the bench. Only if the representative STOOD IN THE PLACE of the accused could the guilt or righteousness of the representative provide an object of judgment or justification.

Christ did not act as our LAWYER but TOOK OUR SINS UPON HIMSELF not merely as our representative but as our substitute.

2 Cor. 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Absolutely false! "ALL SINNED" as they were actually IN ADAM just as Levi paid tithes IN ABRAHAM's loins when he paid tithes to Melchisadek. Adam was more than a mere representative of the human race he was the human race in its totality and every human being that would ever live was genetically, seminally IN ADAM when Adam sinned.

Look at your own reasoning!! On one hand you claim that Jesus could not act as a SUBSTITUTE because that would be unjust and then on the other hand you claim he "voluntarily submitted" to suffering and death that justice would deny he deserved! Your speaking out of both sides of your mouth but I don't think you realize it!

Totally false! God did not establish a "new basis" but acted in accord with the "everlasting covenant" (Heb. 13:20) that was signified through SUBSTITIONARY sacrifices from the foundation of the world.

Totally wrong again! Galatians 3:6-8 tells us that the object of his faith was the gospel or the good news of a promised seed that would come through his own loins. The same promised seed in Genesis 3:15 which Adam and Eve believed in and Abel believed in. Galatians 3:17 tells us clearly that Abraham was "in Christ" by faith 430 years before the law was given.

Therefore it had NOTHING to do with "the quality of His faith" but with the OBJECT of His faith, the object that is presented in the clearest SUBSTITUTIONARY and REPRESENTATIVE way possible when God provided Abraham a SUBSTIUTE ram on Mount Moriah to REPRESENT His Son Isaac instead of killing Isaac.

I am sorry, but you have absolutely no concept of the truth in this matter. Salvation/justification is NOT "by" the QUALITY of Faith or mere identification with man BUT by faith "IN" the good news that Jesus died "FOR" the sinner to SATISFY the righteous wrath of God against the sinner and the good news that Christ's righteousness is imputed to the sinner to SATISFY the righteous demands of God to enter heaven as this is the only way that God can justify the "UNGODLY" without works (Rom. 4:5-6).

You are denying the very heart and soul of the gospel as the gospel is not MERELY about representation but about actual SATISFACTION of God's Law in the Person of Jesus Christ as a LEGAL SUBSTITUTIONARY REPRESENTATIVE.

 

I am not ignoring you. I just don't have time to answer your objections right now. My wife has alzheimer's and we are on a regiment that requires an every hour treatment. I promise I will answer your post fully and completely. I have answered SBG's post because I started with him before I did you.

 

The ram was provided by God to TAKE THE PLACE of Isaac who was already bound and on the altar - that is a SUBSTITUTIONARY SACRIFICE and it is THE TYPE of what God did FOR sinners through Jesus Christ ON Calvary.

Prior to the Levitical laws of sacrifice, the burnt offering was the ONLY offering offered up between Genesis 4 and Leviticus 1. As seen in the case of Isaac and the ram it was SUBSTITUTIONARY in nature as that is precisely the TYPE displayed upon Mount Morriah.

After the Leviticual institution of sacrifices under Moses the offering was expanded into five basic types of sacrifice but all five typical of Jesus Christ. Only from the Levitical perspective does the "burnt" sacrifice take on a distinctive separate from the other four. Previously, all five where represented in the burnt offering as the burnt offering is inclusive of the other four. It was separated to typify something the other four did not emphaize. However, in all the sacrifices the offering represents Christ IN THE PLACE of the offerer. Hence, it is representative in nature but what it represents is SUBSTITUTION of Christ in the place of the sinner.

The law demands from the sinner a life of ABSOLUTE PERFECTION which is inclusive of ABSOLUTE PERFECT DEVOTION. This is impossible for the sinner to EVER fulfill in his own person. It is fulfilled by Christ before the Law as the LEGAL substitute for the sinner - it is imputed to our account as though we lived that total life of devotion from birth to death. No sinner can EVER in this life measure up to the demands typified in ANY of the offerings no more than they can ever measure up to the life of Christ but that kind of life and death is what is demanded to satisfy God's Law to enter heaven and escape hell.

If you really believe you can follow the example of Jesus than you believe you are as good as God! Remember the story of the rich young ruler who wished to follow a GOOD example to obtain eternal life? Jesus said "why callesth thou me good, there is NONE GOOD but one and that is God." God's law does not demand merely doing the best you can. It demands ABSOLUTE FLAWLESS moral perfection as Good as God. That is precisely why Jesus told his disciples they had to have a righteousness that EXCEEDS the best of religious people of the day just to enter heaven (Mt. 5:20) and defined it at the end of that sermon on righteousness to "BE ye therefore PERFECT even as your Father in heaven is perfect" (Mt. 5:46).

Are you as Perfect "even as" the Father in heaven is perfect or have you sinned and "come short of the glory" that alone belongs to God????? Think about that if you are trying to follow an example because the example Jesus provided was SINLESS PERFECTION! Do you see why you need a SUBSTITUTE and not merely an EXAMPLE????

My friend you have missed the words of Jesus by a mile. He is not talking about following his example but he is talking about SELF-DENIAL and complete dependency upon the Holy Spirit to live the Christian life. You must put SELF to death by denying it to live your life and submit to the indwelling Spirit of God. However, this text is not talking about how to become a Christian but how a Christian can make his life count for Christ and eternal rewards.

You are making Christ merely our REPRESENTATIVE before God who is our Judge. That is the place of a Lawyer in a court of law not the place of the accused. You are accused of sin and you are condemned to death because of your sin. The condemned cannot justify himself. The lawyer cannot justify the condemned - only the judge can justify the condemned. Neither can the judge cannot justify the condemned on the basis of the life of the lawyer who represents the accused as the lawyer is not on trial but it is the accused that is on trial. Either the accused must pay the penalty or the law must be satisfied another way outside of the person of the accused. That other way is seen in the ram IN THE PLACE of Isaac.

The immaculate conception has to do with the birth of Mary not the birth of Jesus. Rome believes that Mary was born without sin. That is false. However, do you believe the virgin birth? That is the doctrine that bypasses the inherent sinful nature passed down through Adam - the father. God was the Father of Jesus and Jesus was born without a sinful nature. He had no dispostion to sin but every human born of Adam is born not only as a sinner in Adam, but with a sinful disposition or born "by nature children of wrath" and "children of disobedience" (Eph. 2:2-3). Not so with the birth of Christ or with the disposition of Christ.

 

How could He accept it IF as you say the everlasting covenant was not put into force before Calvary? How could Abraham be justified IF as you say the everlasting covenant was not put into force before Calvary? How could he walk "by faith" which is a FRUIT OF THE INDWELLING SPIRIT OF GOD if as you say the everlasting covenant was not put into force before Calvary??????? It was because Calvary only gave it PUBLIC RATIFICATION not implementation.

My friend then you reject the gospel of Jesus Christ and reject Jesus Christ Himself and hold to and preach "another gospel." What do you think the "fire" in the offerings represented? God's "love"? Why don't you roast your wife and children if that is your understanding of "love"? The "fire" represented the wrath of God against sin and sinners and Jesus took their place. What you are embracing is absolute heresy and is a reproach upon God, His Law and his provision for salvation and you need the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth of the gospel to your mind. You may be a saved person, but saved in spite of what you embrace with your mind, but I guarantee you no sinner can be saved if that is the gospel he first trusted in, because he is as lost now as he was then.

You need to consider this very seriously as you are embracing something that will not save anyone who believes it for the saving of their soul.

 

All five Levitical offerings are essential to properly convey the atonement provided by Christ. You cannot simply select one and reject the others. There is no doubt that Christ is the EXAMPLE of moral perfection but more than a mere EXAMPLE as the Law of God demands from YOU as much obedience to its precepts as Christ provided in his EXAMPLE or else you come under its WRATH. If Christ was only a mere EXAMPLE then he makes no PROVISION to SAVE you from the WRATH of God's law for failure to MEASURE UP to its STANDARD of Righteousness.

That condemnation by the Law for failing to measure up to the righteousness of God's law is explicitly described by Christ in John 3:18-19 and The Baptist in John 3:36.

Here is your predicament. The mere EXAMPLE of Christ enables no one to measure up to the STANDARD of righteousness demanded by the Law of God which is equal to the MORAL PERFECTION of God or a righteousness that EXCEEDS the best that the best of men can do (Mt. 5:20) and EQUAL to the moral perfection of God (Mt. 5:48). All humans "come short" of that standard which is the glory of God or His moral perfection. Hence, they come under the WRATH of God's law.

So you have TWO problems.

(1)You need to be sinlessly perfect in order to be justified before God and satisfy the righteous demands of God's Law. The mere EXAMPLE of Christ does not provide you with that necessity. Under your theory ONLY YOU can satisfy that demand and therefore YOU must be PERFECT to be justified before God's Law. So either YOU must personally BE PERFECT or someone else's perfection must satisfy the law's demand FOR YOU! ONLY the substitutionary provision of Christ provides you with that necessity as illustrated in the three "sweet savor" Levitical offerings.

(2) You need the condemnation and wrath of God against you satisfied due to breaking his Law. The mere EXAMPLE of Christ does not provide you that necessity. Hence under your theory of atonement YOU must pay the penalty yourself as you have no one to pay it for you. ONLY the substitutionary provision of Christ provides you with that necessity as illustrated in the two "non-sweet savior" Levitical offerings.

The offering up of Isaac on Mount Moriah is a picture of God's provision for His people through offering up His only begotten Son to deliver believers from the consequences of their sin - death. Hence, it is a full and comprehensive type.


1. Isaac being freed from the altar typifies God's people being freed from the consequence of sin - death. However, the Ram was not freed from death but TOOK THE PLACE of Isaac a type of God's people was was freed by REPLACEMENT of the ram.

2. Isaac being offered up by Abraham is a type of God offering up His only begotten Son. The ram represents the death of Christ on Calvary and the freedom of Isaac typifies the resurrection of Christ as one who both died and lived.

The EXAMPLE of Christ saves NNE! Unless, you can EQUAL that example and then the Law cannot condemn you as it could could not find sin in Christ.

Hence, you have NO SAVIOR from sin if the provision of Christ is merely given to be an EXAMPLE of righteousness or an EXAMPLE of God's love.

Only after one is SAVED from sin does the EXAMPLE of Christ provide a role model to press toward that mark as in Philip. 3:10-14. However, before that is possible one must experience Philippians 3:7-9 where one counts their own life of works as dung and be found "in" Christ's righteousness and not their own. Your mere EXAMPLE atonement cannot do this as it cannot provide you with anything other than an EXAMPLE.

This scripture does not teach that Jesus received the SIN NATURE but only that he received the HUMAN NATURE or became HUMAN in nature. Adam was HUMAN in nature and yet WITHOUT SIN before the Fall. Jesus is called the SECOND ADAM because he too became HUMAN IN NATURE but without the SIN NATURE.

There is no one Biblical writer who will agree with you! Jesus will not because he told his hearers that they must "repent or PERISH" (Lk. 13:3,5) and that all humans were born "CONDEMNED ALREADY" (Jn. 3:18-19). John the Baptist taught all humans remain "UNDER THE WRATH OF GOD" (Jn. 3:36) until they repent and believe. Paul said that we were born "children of WRATH even as others" (Eph. 2:3).

You need a Savior to Save you from CONDEMNATION and WRATH and that is precisely what the "fire" in the offerings represented and that is LITERALLY what Gehenna is described as "the lake of FIRE." Christ as a mere EXAMPLE cannot provide the righteousness you need to measure up to the Law's standard to be justified to live and neither can Christ as a mere EXAMPLE satisfy God's condemnation and wrath against you for violating His law. YOU HAVE NO SAVIOR by mere EXAMPLE from either of these demands by God's law (sinless righteousness OR eternal condemnation).

Christ as a mere EXAMPLE saves no one! Either YOU will have to LIVE and BE as SINLESS as Christ, thus LIVE His EXAMPLE in order to be Justified before God OR you will be condemned to eternal death and gehenna forever.

The five levitical offerings REPRESENT Christ as our SUBSTITUTE to SATISFY both demands of God's law FOR US. The sacrificial animal had to be a "SPOTLESS" lamb as the Law required SINLESS PERFECTION to be justified before God and He BECAME OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS IN OUR PLACE BEFORE GOD and that is why we are "justified by faith" whereas an EXAMPLE theory demands we must be JUSTIFIED BY OUR OWN WORKS.

The spotless lamb DIED and DEATH is the consequence of CONDEMNATION for sin. However, Christ had no sin and yet He died FOR OUR SINS. Your mere EXAMPLE atonement saves no one from their sins. Hence, if you reject Christ as YOUR SUBSTITUE in the payment of sin then YOU MUST DIE for YOUR SINS as they certainly are not the sins of Christ unless He BECOMES SIN FOR US (2 Cor. 5:21).

You need to seriously consider what I have said because your EXAMPLE atonement theory cannot and will not save you as your EXAMPLE theory provides no Savior to satisfy God's standard of righteousness but YOUR OWN righteousness and no Savior to satisfy sin's penalty but YOUR OWN DEATH.

 

Trevor,

Salvation is represented in Scripture in three tenses (1) Past tense - saved; (2) present tense - being saved; (3) Future tense "shall be saved"

I believe salvation is designed for our whole person which is also three parts (1) spirit; (2) soul; (3) body - 1 Thes. 5:23

In regard to those three aspects of our human nature there are three corresponding aspects of salvation

1) The human spirit - "that which is spirit is born of the Spirit" - regeneration/justification/conversion. past tense "saved"

2. the human soul - the progressive salvation of the life for as a man thinketh so is he - present tense sanctification - being saved

3. the human body - future tense glorification - future tense - "shall be saved"

When we ask are you "saved"? We are not talking about the glorification of their body nor are we talking about sinless perfection in their life/soul but rather we are talking about the initial aspect of salvation - have you been born again and converted to Christ by faith in the gospel. That is a past tense completed action that is never repeated again. It pertains not merely to your person (regeneration) but to your position before God in heaven (justification) at initial conversion.

Paul speaks of "redeeming the time" (Eph. 5:17) or making YOUR DAILY LIFE count for Christ. The means for accomplishing this on a DAILY basis is to be filled or under the controlling influence of the Spirit (Eph. 5:18) so that your mind, heart and will, words and actions come under "submission" (Eph. 5:20) to God on a daily basis. The time under His control is being saved for God's glory, for present blessings and eternal rewards. The time not under His control is LOST. Hence, we are commanded to set our afffections on things above (Eph. 5:1-2) as our external life [psuche] will mirror what our internal soul [psuche]embraces. The Greek term "psuche" is translated in some passages "life" and in other passages "soul" but the same term. What occurs within the "soul" is expressed outwardly in the "life" and it is that outward "life" that either is being saved or lost for the glory of God. The life of works can be lost or saved but the inward "soul" is not lost (1 Cor. 3:14-15). The saving and losing of our daily life is the theme of 1 Cor. 3:11-15. The "foundation" in 1 Cor. 3:11 represents the past tense conversion experience to the gospel but 1 Cor. 3:12-15 represnets the progressive building of our life upon that foundation of either good or bad works.

As a man thinketh IN HIS HEART so is he in his outward life IF his heart is empowered by the Holy Spirit (Rom. 7:14-25).

I know many will not agree with me here but what I am saying will stand up to God's Word and will help you understand the difference between the three tenses of salvation found in the scriptures.

Entrance to heaven is secured "saved" by the past tense regeneration/justification conversion experience with the gospel - OUr spirit

Redeeming our time is being accomplished "being saved" by the present tense progressive sanctification. - Our Soul

Fitness to enter heaven is obtained by glorification "shall be saved" the future tense aspect of salvation - Our body

 

It is not that we "WILL" be condemned but we come into this world condemned ALREADY. We are born UNDER SIN and thus UNDER LAW and condemned ALREADY (Jn. 3:18-19). We are not born or come into this world under grace! There is no under grace until first you come out from "UNDER LAW" and "UNDER SIN" and that is by JUSTIFICATION based upon the PROVISION that satisfies the righteous demands and wrath of God's Law.

Rom. 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Your problem is that you have no basis to be justified because you believe only that Christ provided a mere example rather than a complete satisfaction FOR us.

No sinner can pay the debt of another sinner. Two things are required to be justified by God's Law - sinless perfection is required by the law to be justified as fit to enter heaven and eternal penalty of sin must be paid to get out of hell. Faith does not justify anyone unless that faith is in the provision by God that satisfies both - Jesus Christ.

No human is under grace coming into this world and no human can be under grace until they are first justified before God and no one can be JUSTIFIED before God unless they can measure up to God's standard of justice - His Law of righteousness! NO HUMAN BEING CAN BE JUSTIFIED UNDER THAT STANDARD BECAUSE THAT STANDARD IS THE SAME STANDARD AS THE GLORY OF GOD = SINLESS PERFECTION.

Moreover, faith does not justify any sinner. What justifies a sinner is faith in the proper object and you deny the proper object. The proper object is a sinless, spotless substitute provided by God Himself in the Person of His Son.This is the essence of the "good news" or gospel of Jesus Christ. The gospel is not about Christ being an EXAMPLE - you will not find one scripture to teach that! The good news is what Christ did "FOR" sinners not what sinners do for God. Christ is the propitiation for sin - the satisfaction (Rom. 3:24-26) which is the object of faith "in him" and "in his blood." Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin before God. Beleive all you want but it will be a "vain" faith if that faith is not in the right object.

First, Romans 5:15-19 and 1 Corinithians 15:43-45 explicitly states that Jesus is the "second Adam" and stands in the same position as did Adam BEFORE THE FALL. If he did not, then he could not be called the "second" Adam nor could he be a proper representative. If Christ had a sin nature that would disqualify him as a "second" Adam because Adam in his representative capacity did not have a sin nature until AFTER the fall and AFTER the fall he no longer served in the capacity as a representative because he failed in that capacity BY THE FALL.

Second, the Scripture is clear that there is an exception to Christ taking upon the form or likeness of flesh (humanity) and that exception is that in him there is no sin:

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Note the bold underlined preposition and present tense STATE OF BEING verb. The preposition defines the sphere "IN" him and the STATE OF BEING verb "IS" the continuous present tense. John did not say "BY" him he "did" not sin (ACTION VERB) but rather is denying in the clearest language possible that Jesus possessed a sin nature.

If we take these texts at face value with your interpretation in view then they demand he did sin and by a process of learning obedience he progressively became "perfect" or "sinless". However, that interpretation contradicts many other scriptures that vehemently deny he ever did sin. Other scriptures say he "knew no sin" and "he did no sin" yet your interpretation demands that he did as it was a PROCESS of learning obedience which means he was disobedient before he "learned" it. Hence, your interpretation must be wrong.

All that your proof texts demand is that he took part of the human nature and that he grew in knowledge and wisdom as a human and during his period as a man he suffered due to sin's consequence already in this world and at work due to the actions and attitudes of sinful human beings around him. He suffered at their hands for being different from them.

He is the "captain" or "author" of our salvation in that he is the one who fought and won victory over "DEATH" as the context defines "death" as the foe and defeated it "FOR" us. WE took no part in this battle. We didn't but HE did. Hence, no grounds for mere example or following a mere example.

You are reading into this text something it does not say explicitly - you infer it. It does not say he God sent his own Son "in sinful flesh" but rather in "the likeness" of sinful flesh. If your interpretation was the point of the author then he would have dropped the term "likeness" and just said he was sent "in sinful flesh" but John denies that sin existed "in" him and thus denies your interpretation of this text.

The term "feared" means "respect" or "reverence" as in a God fearer. He learned obedience in that he grew in knowledge and wisdom not that he learned by trial and ERROR thus making him a sinner and by process he became righteous. Again the idea of "captain" of our salvation is defined in that he became the "author" of our salvation not that WE can follow his example and become CAPTAINS and AUTHORS of salvation but this was one thing He did FOR us. As a consequence of a completed work we "follow" him, we don't "follow" him in order to complete his work for us as "we" are not involved in doing that work (2 Cor. 5:21).

The Greek preposition translated "by" is not "en" but "dia" and the KJV has it correctly. It is an action performed "by" Christ that purges us from sin as your next text below describes and that Hebrews 10 teaches in detail. We were "purged" by his blood NOT BY HIS EXAMPLE and NOT BY OUR FOLLOWING such an example. Your interpretation would have us FOLLOW that example as it is that action that purged us. Your interpretation is wrong.

The middle voice simply denies anyone outside of himself was involved or responsible for his actions. It also denies it was a mere example for us to follow but something ONLY HIMSELF could do "FOR" us.

The same Greek preposition "dia" is found translated here "by"! Would you also translate it "in" his blood? Hebrews 1:3 has in view Christ's redemptive work of purging "our sins" and Hebrews 9:12 explicitly describes this as "by his own" equal to "by himself" in Hebrews 1:3 - same thing. However, here it is explicitly stated to be "FOR" us rather than something we participate in by following a mere example. Your atonement theory simply makes Christ the "captain" by mere example for us to follow, well, are you going to follow this example and SHED YOUR BLOOD or will you by faith in his provision believe he shed his blood "FOR US."

 

There is no question he partook of "our human nature" and I certainly do not deny that. However, if by that you mean he partook of our "sin nature", which is entirely different than merely our "human nature" as it was something that was ADDED to the "human nature" by the fall of Adam then you have very serious problems not only with other scriptures but with other New Testament teachings. 1 John 3:5 flatly denies the existence of the sin nature within him.

You don't seem to understand the significance of the virgin birth. If your position was right there would be no need of a virgin birth.

Also, you seem to be very hesitant to admit what John 1:1 plainly and unequivocally states and that The Word "was God" manifested in the flesh (Jn. 1:14,18). The fact that he was God in flesh also denies that the sin nature could be found in his being as God and the sin nature are incompatible with each other.

I don't know how much Greek you understand or if you have had any training in Greek but note the imperfect verb repeatedly used in John 1:1 in contrast to "ginomai" used in John 1:14. "In the beginning The Word was existing [en] and the Word was existing [en] equal with [pros]God and the Word was existing [en] God"

The term "beginning" describes the origin of the first created thing as God is without "beginning" and yet The Word was already existing when the first created thing came into being. This is explicitly stated in verses 2-3 so that NOT ONE THING that came into being, came into being apart from The Word. This is strongest declaration that The Word was "God" in Genesis 1:1 Who created all things.

There are three phrases in Verse 1 that have significant meaning in regard to who the Preexistent Jesus Christ was:

1. In regard to creation - He Prexisted it
2. In regard to the plurality of Persons within the Godhead - He Coexisted equally with God - thus demanding a plurality of Persons within one Divine Essence called "God"
3. In regard to the Nature of God - He is God

Verses 2-3 add and reaffirm to these things that He coexisted with God as The Word that spoke into existed everything created so that not one thing that can be described as created came into existence apart from Him.

In addition verse 4 attributes to him the souce of life and light which can have no other souce than the very nature of what makes God to be God.

However, in contrast to "en" or the imperfect verb of continual existence in past time is the use of "ginomai" which means to "become" in verse 14. God The Word "became" flesh and "tabernacled" among us.

The possession of a sinful nature unites a person with Adam as his REPRESENTATIVE IN THE FALL and therefore does make that person a sinner BY BIRTH. This is the explicit argument by Paul in Romans 5:12-19;

19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners,

Note the careful language! By how many men's disobedience? "by ONE man's disobedience." How many were "made sinners" by ONE MAN'S DISOBEDIENCE? "MANY" What were they made by ONE MAN'S DISOBEDIENCE? "SINNERS"

If Jesus Christ partook of the FALLEN NATURE of Adam then he was a sinner by birth as all who partake of the fallen nature of Adam equally partake of the Representative act of disobedience by Adam and by representation are constituted as "sinners" not merely "sinful". When Adam sinned by one act of disobedience, all in Adam sinned with him by REPRESENTATION thus making them all guilty and that is precisely why Christ said that men are "condemned already" and are subject to death and that is precisely why INFANTS who have not PERSONALLY committed any sin still DIE as death is the consequence of sin and the only sin dying infants are guilty of is "one man's disobedience"

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;

Adam acted as the representative man for the whole human race and what he did was imputed to all his posterity "in" Him and therefore the infant is condemned to death because the infant is a sinner by birth "already condemned" in Adam.

Jesus Christ was not a sinner by birth "already condemned" in Adam but was virgin born by ANOTHER FATHER other than Adam who was WITHOUT SIN and therefore through Mary partook of the human nature without partaking of the sin nature obtained through the representative act of Adam. This virgin birth made it possible for Christ to be the "SECOND Adam" or a NEW REPRENTATIVE man or as Adam was BEFORE HIS FALL so that BY ONE MAN'S OBEDIENCE his satisfaction of the Law of God could be imputed to all those "in him" by representation:


19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Your present position is a repudiation of the gospel of Jesus Christ in the strongest possible language. You repudiate both the Person of Jesus Christ as well as His redemptive substitutionary work. This is not something to take lightly but is of the utmost seriousness in regard to your own eternal welfare.