How Do baptists See/Define the Church of God?

[JesusFan]

at the VERY least, would that be todau ALL of the sains living on earth at this time, regardless if attending a Baptist, methodist, presby etc church?

 

[Tom Butler]

My view, expressed many times, is that the scriptures know of only local congregations.

There are occasions when church is used in generic sense, in the same way we speak of the family. But the generic takes the form of real families, and real churches.

And, there is the prospective sense, which speaks of the General Assembly in heaven.

The entity which includes all the saved is the kingdom. We are all subjects of the King of Kings.

If such a Universal Church as you describe exists, it is dysfunctional, fractured, and filled with people who believe and practice error; and has failed miserably in obeying the Great Commission.

 

[jbh28]

My view, expressed many times, is that the scriptures know of only local congregations.

There are occasions when church is used in generic sense, in the same way we speak of the family. But the generic takes the form of real families, and real churches.

And, there is the prospective sense, which speaks of the General Assembly in heaven.

The entity which includes all the saved is the kingdom. We are all subjects of the King of Kings.

If such a Universal Church as you describe exists, it is dysfunctional, fractured, and filled with people who believe and practice error; and has failed miserably in obeying the Great Commission.

The Universal Church is filled with believers. It has not failed the great commission. Christ is building his church(Matthew 16:18). Christ loves the church and gave himself for the church. (Eph 5). Here are two places where "church" is NOT referring to a specific body of believers but to all believers. I'm not sure why you have such a hard time using the term church for all believers.

 

[Alive in Christ]

at the VERY least, would that be todau ALL of the sains living on earth at this time, regardless if attending a Baptist, methodist, presby etc church?

Absolutely.

The Universal Church.

Praise God for it!

 

[Alive in Christ]

The Universal Church is filled with believers. It has not failed the great commission. Christ is building his church(Matthew 16:18). Christ loves the church and gave himself for the church. (Eph 5). Here are two places where "church" is NOT referring to a specific body of believers but to all believers.

Glory to God for His great provision.

I'm not sure why you have such a hard time using the term church for all believers.

I dont understand it, either.

 

[Iconoclast]

jbh

The Universal Church is filled with believers. It has not failed the great commission. Christ is building his church(Matthew 16:18). Christ loves the church and gave himself for the church. (Eph 5). Here are two places where "church" is NOT referring to a specific body of believers but to all believers. I'm not sure why you have such a hard time using the term church for all believers.

there is no universal church......while the word can be used generically.....like the jury.....if you go to court their will be a specific jury who hears your case...not a generic one.

The church that Christ loves is not generic....but very specific.The verses you used speak of all who assemble on the last day...they have not assembled,or if you will...churched ....yet.

 

[David Lamb]

jbh

there is no universal church......while the word can be used generically.....like the jury.....if you go to court their will be a specific jury who hears your case...not a generic one.

The church that Christ loves is not generic....but very specific.The verses you used speak of all who assemble on the last day...they have not assembled,or if you will...churched ....yet.

I rarely (if ever) disagree with anything you post, Iconoclast, :saint: , but I must here. "The jury" is never used to mean "every member of every individual jury in the whole world." At least, I've never heard or read it used like that. OK, the word "jury" can be used generically, in phrases like "the jury system" and "trial by jury", but otherwise I cannot imagine how the two words "the jury" could be used to mean "all members of all juries".

I fully agree that the church is specific, not "universal" in the sense of including every single human being who has ever lived, but that was surely not what jbh28 meant. Nor (as I see it) did he mean "every member of every organisation calling itself a church" - that would include apostate groupings and some of the cults.

What word or phrase would you suggest to mean "every born-again sinner - everyone in the whole world who is truly 'in Christ'?"

I think part of the confusion is because of the kinship between the word "universal" and the that unbiblical doctrine known as "Universalism".

 

[jbh28]

jbh

there is no universal church......while the word can be used generically.....like the jury.....if you go to court their will be a specific jury who hears yourh case...not a generic one.

The church that Christ loves is not generic....but very specific.The verses you used speak of all who assemble on the last day...they have not assembled,or if you will...churched ....yet.

so then their is a universal church. As you posted, a very specific church of all believers.

I'm not at my church today nor was I yesterday, but I'm a member if my church. We will meet tomorrow. The universal church will meet a little later.

 

[jbh28]

I rarely (if ever) disagree with anything you post, Iconoclast, :saint: , but I must here. "The jury" is never used to mean "every member of every individual jury in the whole world." At least, I've never heard or read it used like that. OK, the word "jury" can be used generically, in phrases like "the jury system" and "trial by jury", but otherwise I cannot imagine how the two words "the jury" could be used to mean "all members of all juries".

I fully agree that the church is specific, not "universal" in the sense of including every single human being who has ever lived, but that was surely not what jbh28 meant. Nor (as I see it) did he mean "every member of every organisation calling itself a church" - that would include apostate groupings and some of the cults.

What word or phrase would you suggest to mean "every born-again sinner - everyone in the whole world who is truly 'in Christ'?"

I think part of the confusion is because of the kinship between the word "universal" and the that unbiblical doctrine known as "Universalism".

right, the universal church are those believers in Christ. There are many that go to a church that are not saved and not part of the church.

You post gives me some understanding why some would reject the idea of a universal church. It does not mean every person that ever lived nor a person that just goes to a local church. It's only those that are in Christ.

 

[JesusFan]

[

QUOTE=jbh28;1729409]right, the universal church are those believers in Christ. There are many that go to a church that are not saved and not part of the church.

The "Universal Church" per the Bible would be the departed saints in Christ who are with God right now, and all of the living saints upon the earth, who are found in local churches/denominations/ fellowships etc!

You post gives me some understanding why some would reject the idea of a universal church. It does not mean every person that ever lived nor a person that just goes to a local church. It's only those that are in Christ.[/QUOTE

]


Think another big reason(s) would be fear of getting 'tagged' with Catholic Church, as they claim to be the "Universal Church", and also are afraid of being "lumped together" with ANY Denominations, as those holding to "local church only" tend to see them as being 'apostate/evil!"

 

[Alive in Christ]

The "Universal Church" per the Bible would be the departed saints in Christ who are with God right now, and all of the living saints upon the earth, who are found in local churches/denominations/ fellowships etc!

Yes, and it would also include all of those born again christians who, for whatever reason, are NOT currently members of a particular local church fellowship.

We cant leave those brothers and sisters out.

They too are part of the universal church.

 

[DHK]

Yes, and it would also include all of those born again christians who, for whatever reason, are NOT currently members of a particular local church fellowship.

We cant leave those brothers and sisters out.

They too are part of the universal church.

Why on earth would you think of "the so-called Church" as including "saints" in heaven. That is pure Catholicism, and certainly not taught in the Bible. Would you pray to them also?

The word "church" simply is translated from the Greek word "ekklesia" meaning "assembly." An assembly cannot be universal in any sense of the definition until we all gather together as one assembly in heaven. That is the only time it will be "universal."

Until then we have local assemblies with local pastors, deacons, treasurers, secretaries, and those who carry on the work of the Great Commission and the two ordinances that Christ gave to the local church--baptism and the Lord's Supper.

How can those be done through any such "universal church"? They can't. It is impossible. The "universal church" defies the very definition of ekklesia or assembly. One cannot have an unassembled assembly. It is a contradiction in terminology. Two translations translate this word properly: Young's literal and Darby's translation. Read them and you will get a better sense of ecclesiology.

 

[JesusFan]

Yes, and it would also include all of those born again christians who, for whatever reason, are NOT currently members of a particular local church fellowship.

We cant leave those brothers and sisters out.

They too are part of the universal church.

Yes, to me basically its the total Body of Christ, and that would even included "lone ranger' Christians!

 

[JesusFan]

Why on earth would you think of "the so-called Church" as including "saints" in heaven. That is pure Catholicism, and certainly not taught in the Bible. Would you pray to them also

?


Think might be overreacting based upon catholic background here brother!

Body of Christ IS ALL those who are part of the redeemed of the Lord, and yes, that would be those who fell "asleep" in Christ and those of us alive here on earth!

The word "church" simply is translated from the Greek word "ekklesia" meaning "assembly." An assembly cannot be universal in any sense of the definition until we all gather together as one assembly in heaven. That is the only time it will be "universal."

Assembly of the Body of Christ here on the earth would include ALL of the saints here at 1 time, regardless of Church 'labeL", as they would be saved by grace of God!

So God would see that "assemble" as being the Body of Christ in its totaility here on earth, who just so happen to be attending seperate worship places!

Until then we have local assemblies with local pastors, deacons, treasurers, secretaries, and those who carry on the work of the Great Commission and the two ordinances that Christ gave to the local church--baptism and the Lord's Supper.

Who would be "parts" of the total body present here on the earth!


How can those be done through any such "universal church"? They can't. It is impossible. The "universal church" defies the very definition of ekklesia or assembly. One cannot have an unassembled assembly. It is a contradiction in terminology. Two translations translate this word properly: Young's literal and Darby's translation. Read them and you will get a better sense of ecclesiology.

Think that we need to see that there are indeed local assemblies/churches , but that they would be just a part of the Body of Christ, part of the full assembly of the true Church of Christ here upon the earth!

 

[percho]

Is the church called out of one assembly, that is the world, as an assembly or as a body for One?

 

[DHK]

Think might be overreacting based upon catholic background here brother!

Body of Christ IS ALL those who are part of the redeemed of the Lord, and yes, that would be those who fell "asleep" in Christ and those of us alive here on earth!

That is your unsubstantiated opinion with no scriptural support.
Paul wrote to the Corinthian Church: “Now you are a body of Christ and members in particular.”
Every assembly is a body of Christ, with Christ as the head. That is Biblical teaching. You won’t find your philosophy in the Bible.

Assembly of the Body of Christ here on the earth would include ALL of the saints here at 1 time, regardless of Church 'labeL", as they would be saved by grace of God!

Where do they assemble?
At what time?
Who does the preaching?
Who are the deacons?
Who takes up the offering?
An assembly is an assembly, a congregation. It is local—always! Your statement makes no sense because you defy the definition of assembly. You are trying to change the definition of a well known word. Language doesn’t work that way.

So God would see that "assemble" as being the Body of Christ in its totaility here on earth, who just so happen to be attending seperate worship places!

[/quote]
God looks at the assembly as carrying out the two ordinance that he gave his assembly (ies), baptism and the Lord’s Supper? This so-called universal church doesn’t do that and therefore is disobedient to the Lord. They have a hodge-podge of disparate doctrine, much of you would disagree with. They are not one in doctrine. And they do not assemble, contrary to what you assert. Why do you assert that which is not true?

Who would be "parts" of the total body present here on the earth!

No such monster exists.

Think that we need to see that there are indeed local assemblies/churches , but that they would be just a part of the Body of Christ, part of the full assembly of the true Church of Christ here upon the earth!

As per, “assembly” there is only one kind—local. If you need a dictionary, use one. The church at Corinth was called a “body of Christ.” There was never any “universal church” referred to in the Bible. Why make up such a foreign concept now. Perhaps the term you are looking for is “the family of God, which does include all believers. The philosophy you present is not in the Bible, and I do not that you have not given a shred of Scripture to back up your “philosophy.”

 

[jbh28]

That is your unsubstantiated opinion with no scriptural support.
Paul wrote to the Corinthian Church: “Now you are a body of Christ and members in particular.”
Every assembly is a body of Christ, with Christ as the head. That is Biblical teaching. You won’t find your philosophy in the Bible.

No one is denying that there are local churches. So showing and example of a local church only shows that.

Where do they assemble?
At what time?
Who does the preaching?
Who are the deacons?
Who takes up the offering?

The universal church is made up of all believers. We will be all together one day. My church is still a church today though we will not be meeting.

An assembly is an assembly, a congregation. It is local—always! Your statement makes no sense because you defy the definition of assembly. You are trying to change the definition of a well known word. Language doesn’t work that way.

I've already given two examples of "church" being used for all beleivers and local body of believers.

God looks at the assembly as carrying out the two ordinance that he gave his assembly (ies), baptism and the Lord’s Supper? This so-called universal church doesn’t do that and therefore is disobedient to the Lord.

No, those are ordinance for the local church. All believers should be doing those in their local church.

As per, “assembly” there is only one kind—local. If you need a dictionary, use one. The church at Corinth was called a “body of Christ.” There was never any “universal church” referred to in the Bible. Why make up such a foreign concept now. Perhaps the term you are looking for is “the family of God, which does include all believers. The philosophy you present is not in the Bible, and I do not that you have not given a shred of Scripture to back up your “philosophy.”

And Christ is building his church, not a specific local church. Christ laid down his life for the church, not a specific local church.

we go to a local church. That's where we assemble today. The universal church is made up of all believers.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast posted this...

there is no universal church......

...as the universal church marches on victoriously.

Saving the lost. Comforting the downtrodden, encouraging the saints, healing the sick, teaching Gods truthes, etc etc etc...

:godisgood:

 

[jbh28]

Why on earth would you think of "the so-called Church" as including "saints" in heaven. That is pure Catholicism, and certainly not taught in the Bible. Would you pray to them also?

The word "church" simply is translated from the Greek word "ekklesia" meaning "assembly." An assembly cannot be universal in any sense of the definition until we all gather together as one assembly in heaven. That is the only time it will be "universal."

Until then we have local assemblies with local pastors, deacons, treasurers, secretaries, and those who carry on the work of the Great Commission and the two ordinances that Christ gave to the local church--baptism and the Lord's Supper.

How can those be done through any such "universal church"? They can't. It is impossible. The "universal church" defies the very definition of ekklesia or assembly. One cannot have an unassembled assembly. It is a contradiction in terminology. Two translations translate this word properly: Young's literal and Darby's translation. Read them and you will get a better sense of ecclesiology.

Does your church mean 24 hours a day or does it cease being a church until the next time your meet? Do you consider yourself a member of your local church even though you may not be there at the current moment? Unless you are in your church assembled, you have an "unassembled assembly" as you put it. You say, but we will meet soon. That's true of the universal church as well.

 

[Alive in Christ]

DHK...

Why on earth would you think of "the so-called Church" as including "saints" in heaven. That is pure Catholicism, and certainly not taught in the Bible. Would you pray to them also?

Could you please produce a "quote" from my post where I said anything about the "saints in heaven"

I did however refer to those christians who are currently not part of a local church.

Jesusfan refered to them as "lone ranger christians"