How Do baptists See/Define the Church of God?

[DHK]

Define the Church of God?

Can there be called out ones, belonging to Jesus of Nazareth the Christ the Son of God, that is the church, the body of Christ, the household of God without the presence of the Holy Spirit of God in those called out?

Is that not the very essence that establishes the church as the church? The Holy Spirit in you is Christ in you. NOW

No, it is just a made up doctrine. The word "church" (ekklesia) or assembly, always refers to something local.

In thy seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed. How? by the promise of the Holy Spirit. that we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

If I am not obedient unto death even the death on the cross, the Comforter will not come unto you.

Was this a given? Was it without more temptation than you or I could have over come. This statement is made relative to the authorship and completeness of the faith which is relative to enduring the cross and the shame thereof. Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. Luke 22:42-44 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

God beget in the virgin Mary one born a man child, in the flesh of the seed of Abraham. The seed of Abraham was given promises of things he did not have. He was begotten of the Holy Spirit but if he wasn't obedient to that above he would not ever have received the Holy Spirit and we would not also.

When the seed came to whom the promises were made, he came made of woman made under the law. The promise might be given by faith of Christ. Obedience of faith, death on the cross.

Eph 2:8 and Titus 3:5 state what was done that will bring salvation.

By grace are ye saved through the faith. The definite article is there as well as it is in Gal. 3:14, because it is the faith of Christ.
Remember without the resurrection of Jesus there would be no resurrection to eternal life, according to 1 Cor 15 we would die in our sins and perish. So of whom do you think this promise was made before time began? Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
According to his mercy He (not your faith) saved us. Christ by faith in some promises died. By the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:33 having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit

Christ received the promises made to Abraham and his seed. We are joint heirs with Christ. Why would the Christ have to be heir of anything? Because he is the seed of Abraham.

God, did empty himself, in the only begotten of the Father in the virgin Mary.
My son, God will prepare himself a lamb.

This is relative to the OP

All of these Scriptures are either addressed to the disciples directly or to individuals and need not to apply to any church.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

The age of grace began when believers became indwelt with the Holy Spirit.
The age of the churches; the acts of the apostles; the NT age, all began with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Your point is not valid.

You just validated my point before saying it was not valid. This is the result of such an inconsistent position....contradictory statements. You just revealed the truth & then denied that truth.

 

[percho]

No, it is just a made up doctrine. The word "church" (ekklesia) or assembly, always refers to something local.

All of these Scriptures are either addressed to the disciples directly or to individuals and need not to apply to any church.

So the local assembly, assembles together in the name of Christ and that is the church that Jesus the Christ built. On that corner the 1st Baptist Church over there is the Methodist, down the street is the Greek Orthodox, around the bend The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, just around the bend from the 1st Presbyterian USA, across the street from St. Peters Catholic, three miles down the road is Seventh day Adventist, which just happens to be across the street from the Seventh Day Baptist.

And the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with any of this nor the individuals that make up all these local assemblies in the name of Jesus the Christ.

tohuw and bohuw

 

[DHK]

So the local assembly, assembles together in the name of Christ and that is the church that Jesus the Christ built. On that corner the 1st Baptist Church over there is the Methodist, down the street is the Greek Orthodox, around the bend The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, just around the bend from the 1st Presbyterian USA, across the street from St. Peters Catholic, three miles down the road is Seventh day Adventist, which just happens to be across the street from the Seventh Day Baptist.

And the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with any of this nor the individuals that make up all these local assemblies in the name of Jesus the Christ.

tohuw and bohuw

Individuals that make up local churches do so in obedience to God.
When a person is saved is automatically indwelt with the Holy Spirit; we both agree on that. From that time onward he undergoes a process of sanctification in his life. When I got saved I was not baptized right away. In fact I was not baptized for two years after I got saved. Does that mean I was not saved, or not indwelt by the Spirit?
No. It means either I was disobedient, or I was ignorant of some Bible teaching for that period of time--one or the other.
For the same period of time I was obviously not a member of a local church. Does that mean that I was not indwelt by the Holy Spirit? No! Both baptism and membership in a local church are matters of obedience. So is prayer, the study of God's Word, witnessing, and many other things that Christ has commanded us to do. They are not a part of our salvation.

If terminology is difficult for you try the family of God. When we were born again we were born into God's family and we all became brothers and sisters in Christ, children of God, part of God's family.

 

[DHK]

You just validated my point before saying it was not valid. This is the result of such an inconsistent position....contradictory statements. You just revealed the truth & then denied that truth.

1. The indwelling of the Spirit has nothing to do with the local church.
2. The Bible doesn't teach a universal church.
3. I don't understand the point you are trying to make; I don't follow your logic. There doesn't seem to be any.

 

[Tom Butler]

So the local assembly, assembles together in the name of Christ and that is the church that Jesus the Christ built. On that corner the 1st Baptist Church over there is the Methodist, down the street is the Greek Orthodox, around the bend The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, just around the bend from the 1st Presbyterian USA, across the street from St. Peters Catholic, three miles down the road is Seventh day Adventist, which just happens to be across the street from the Seventh Day Baptist.

And the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with any of this nor the individuals that make up all these local assemblies in the name of Jesus the Christ.

tohuw and bohuw

Surely you are not saying all these groups you mentioned are New Testament churches. Some of them bear little or no resemblance to the church Jesus established during his time on earth.

 

[percho]

Individuals that make up local churches do so in obedience to God.
When a person is saved is automatically indwelt with the Holy Spirit; we both agree on that. From that time onward he undergoes a process of sanctification in his life. When I got saved I was not baptized right away. In fact I was not baptized for two years after I got saved. Does that mean I was not saved, or not indwelt by the Spirit?
No. It means either I was disobedient, or I was ignorant of some Bible teaching for that period of time--one or the other.
For the same period of time I was obviously not a member of a local church. Does that mean that I was not indwelt by the Holy Spirit? No! Both baptism and membership in a local church are matters of obedience. So is prayer, the study of God's Word, witnessing, and many other things that Christ has commanded us to do. They are not a part of our salvation.

If terminology is difficult for you try the family of God. When we were born again we were born into God's family and we all became brothers and sisters in Christ, children of God, part of God's family.

So we are not put into the church by God but we through our obedience to baptism join the church. Christ is building his local churches through the obedience of baptism into a local church. Being there isn't any NT precedent would it be possible for there to have been a convocation of the churches of God in Asia.

 

[DHK]

So we are not put into the church by God but we through our obedience to baptism join the church. Christ is building his local churches through the obedience of baptism into a local church. Being there isn't any NT precedent would it be possible for there to have been a convocation of the churches of God in Asia.

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. (Acts 2:41)
--"added unto them", that is the 120 mentioned in chapter one, now more specifically the First Baptist Church at Jerusalem.

Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. (Acts 2:47)
--"the church" that is, The First Baptist Church at Jerusalem." It is a local church here, not any so-called mystical universal church. The Lord was adding to the church at Jerusalem, daily.

It becomes a matter of obedience for one to get baptized after they are saved and then to join a local church, just as they did here in the First Baptist Church at Jerusalem.

Paul went on three missionary journeys and established over 100 churches in those journeys. This is God's method of discipling his people in this day and age. It is a matter of obedience. God is not going to baptize you; and God is not going to put you into a church. These are steps of obedience you have to do yourself.

And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch,
22Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed. (Acts 14:21-23)

There was no convocation of churches. Paul went on three different missionary journeys, establishing churches. He went to a place, spent a period of time there--from a few months (a year and a half at Corinth), and left when the church had a pastor. Note: They ordained pastors at every church they started. It is the will of God that all who got saved to be baptized and to be a member of a local church.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

To say that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with the Covenanted church is foolishness. There can be no church in covenant relation with God without the indwelling. Did Christ only die for local churches that are assembled or for the entirety of believers; past, present, & future? God describes the church as both a local & universal organism.

ALL believers are baptized into one body. How can Scripture be any clearer than that? Are there apostles & prophets in every church? No, but there are in the body/church/bride of Christ. The same passage which states that there is only on body also claims that we have only one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, & one God. Using your hermeneutic, must we conclude that there is one of each for every local church? According to Scripture, is Christ the savior of the body or bodies?
I am amazed at how you can deny such clear Biblical teachings in order to hold to your personal beliefs. Understand that I am not denying any aspect of the local church as you are denying the body/Church of Christ. You could just as easily be arguing against the deity of Christ based upon His humanity. I am acknowledging two Biblical truths concerning the church, while you are denying one of them. I am also amazed at how you hang your entire church theology on the dictionary definition of ekklesia while ignoring the wording & tense of the words used to describe the church as a single body that we are baptized into by Christ through the Holy Spirit.


For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1Co 12:13)
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
(1Co 12:28)

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Eph 4:4-6)
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. (Eph 5:23)

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
(Col 1:18-20) (Speaking in universal language...ALL in earth & heaven)

Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; (Col 1:24-25)


But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) (Eph 4:7-10)
(The gifts were given to the church after He ascended into heaven & offered Himself to God as our sole sacrifice for sins. The church was not empowered with the gifts until Pentecost. No sacrifice+ no Covenant+ no indwelling+ no gifting+ No risen High Priest= NO Covenanted church)

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. (Heb 9:15-17)
(No death= NO Covenant)

 

[DHK]

To say that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with the Covenanted church is foolishness. There can be no church in covenant relation with God without the indwelling. Did Christ only die for local churches that are assembled or for the entirety of believers; past, present, & future? God describes the church as both a local & universal organism.

I have been studying the Bible for over 40 years and have never heard of a "Covenanted Church." Is that a Presbyterian or Lutheran term? Just guessing. I am a Baptist. I study the Bible. And that term is nowhere to be found in the Bible. So if something is foolish it is the point that you made, not me.
Secondly, I don't believe in covenant theology so you don't need to go down that road. My relationship with Christ is just that: a personal relationship with Christ, not dependent on any church. What you stated sounds more like the RCC that I came out of, not Baptist polity or doctrine.
Thirdly, Christ died for all the sins of all the world, that whosoever should believe on him should be saved. Of those that believe on him he commands them to be baptized. He also commands them to be part of a local church. There is no command in the Bible to become a member of a U-church. And God never describes any such thing.

ALL believers are baptized into one body.

Not all believers are baptized. I went for two years without being baptized.

How can Scripture be any clearer than that?

Any clearer than what? Did you quote Scripture? I didn't see any.

Are there apostles & prophets in every church? No, but there are in the body/church/bride of Christ.

There are different words for different purposes. They are not all synonyms. Find out the differences between the words before you put slashes between them.

The same passage which states that there is only on body also claims that we have only one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, & one God. Using your hermeneutic, must we conclude that there is one of each for every local church? According to Scripture, is Christ the savior of the body or bodies?

Christ is my Savior. Is he yours? Is he the Savior of the others on this board. But according to your logic there is only one Christ; one Savior. If he is my Savior, and he indwells me, then I am sorry, but your are out of luck for he indwells me and not you. Correct? Your view of Christ is very limited.
Christ is the savior of every person who believes on him.
Christ is the head of every Bible believing church.

I am amazed at how you can deny such clear Biblical teachings in order to hold to your personal beliefs. Understand that I am not denying any aspect of the local church as you are denying the body/Church of Christ. You could just as easily be arguing against the deity of Christ based upon His humanity.

The Bible teaches that Christ is fully God and fully man at the same time. The Bible does not teach the existence of a U-church as much as you wish it to.

I am acknowledging two Biblical truths concerning the church, while you are denying one of them.

You are asserting an opinion that you think is Biblical but you cannot prove that it is.

I am also amazed at how you hang your entire church theology on the dictionary definition of ekklesia while ignoring the wording & tense of the words used to describe the church as a single body that we are baptized into by Christ through the Holy Spirit.

An assembly is a congregation. If it can't assembly it is not a church/assembly. It defies the definition of the word. You can't go around and change the definition of words just to suit your own sentimental ideas.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1Co 12:13)

This verse, written to the Corinthians, is written in a context that can only be written to a local church. I suggest you read the entire chapter before pulling one verse out of context. The local church is compared to a body where all the members are compared to the members of a functioning local church.
The verse can easily be translated this way:
For in one spirit we are all baptized into one body.
--The rest of the verse mentions Jews, Gentiles, slaves, free men, etc. No matter who we are in the local church we are one in Christ. The spirit mentioned here is a spirit of unity. The Greek pronoun is en, commonly translated "in". "In one spirit," a spirit of unity, do we come together in Christ no matter what our backgrounds are.

And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
(1Co 12:28)
--Chapters 12, 13, 14 of this book speak of spiritual gifts. Look at the context of these three chapters.

Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. (1 Corinthians 12:1)
--In chapter 12, a list is given of all the spiritual gifts. The one given in verse 28 is interesting. It lists them all in order of importance. The reason that "apostles" are listed first is because it was the most important, and only a very few attained to it. Then there were prophets and teachers. We don't have apostles and prophets today. The gift of prophecy has ceased. The apostolic age has ceased. In fact all of those gifts have ceased. Paul was addressing the abuse of the spiritual gifts in the Corinthian churches. These gifts were operative only in the first century.

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Eph 4:4-6)
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. (Eph 5:23)

--Paul is speaking to the church at Ephesus. The church at Ephesus is one body. They were of one spirit. They all had one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, etc. That cannot be held true of most believers on this board. I apparently don't even have the same faith as you do as is apparent with our differences right here on this post. Jude said: Contend for the faith--that body of doctrine in which you believe--not just the plan of salvation. They were one in doctrine; one in faith. They weren't divided by Calvinism. They all had the same faith! That can only be said true of a local church.

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
(Col 1:18-20) (Speaking in universal language...ALL in earth & heaven)

Christ is the head of every local church/assembly.

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. (Colossians 1:20)
--There is nothing there about a U-church. Christ died for all. All might have the chance for salvation.

Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; (Col 1:24-25)
The church, whereof I am made a minister can only refer to one church. Paul is not Christ, omnipresent, able to be everywhere at all times. He was made to minister at one church, and one church at a time.

But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) (Eph 4:7-10)
(The gifts were given to the church after He ascended into heaven & offered Himself to God as our sole sacrifice for sins. The church was not empowered with the gifts until Pentecost. No sacrifice+ no Covenant+ no indwelling+ no gifting+ No risen High Priest= NO Covenanted church)
--The gifts that were given in Eph.4: teachers, pastors, evangelists, etc. were given first to the church at Ephesus, and then in application to every Biblical local church. Take things in their context.

The gifts were not given to any hypothetical mystical non-existent church. The Ephesians certainly would not have understood it that way. Paul was writing to them; not some mystical church.

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. (Heb 9:15-17)
(No death= NO Covenant)

And that is not speaking of a local church. Do you know how to read Scripture in its context?

 

[JesusFan]

[

QUOTE=DHK;1732191]I have been studying the Bible for over 40 years and have never heard of a "Covenanted Church." Is that a Presbyterian or Lutheran term? Just guessing. I am a Baptist. I study the Bible. And that term is nowhere to be found in the Bible. So if something is foolish it is the point that you made, not me.

he could have just used a term that means something that we would agree with!

Secondly, I don't believe in covenant theology so you don't need to go down that road. My relationship with Christ is just that: a personal relationship with Christ, not dependent on any church. What you stated sounds more like the RCC that I came out of, not Baptist polity or doctrine

.


There ARE some baptist here that would affirm Covenant theology though, isn't there?

Thirdly, Christ died for all the sins of all the world, that whosoever should believe on him should be saved. Of those that believe on him he commands them to be baptized. He also commands them to be part of a local church. There is no command in the Bible to become a member of a U-church. And God never describes any such thing.

NOT though an either/or situation here!
Gods work is to baptise us by the HS into the Body of Christ Universal, our work is to be water baptised and join a local church!

Not all believers are baptized. I went for two years without being baptized.

believe referring here to baptism by HS that ALL of us have experienced at time of conversion to Christ!


Any clearer than what? Did you quote Scripture? I didn't see any.

There are different words for different purposes. They are not all synonyms. Find out the differences between the words before you put slashes between them.

Christ is my Savior. Is he yours? Is he the Savior of the others on this board. But according to your logic there is only one Christ; one Savior. If he is my Savior, and he indwells me, then I am sorry, but your are out of luck for he indwells me and not you. Correct? Your view of Christ is very limited.
Christ is the savior of every person who believes on him.
Christ is the head of every Bible believing church.

Christ is my redeemer, but its the HS dwelling in me, as jesus is in heaven right now!

The Bible teaches that Christ is fully God and fully man at the same time. The Bible does not teach the existence of a U-church as much as you wish it to.

Strange, as the Apostle paul DID teach such a doctrine!

You are asserting an opinion that you think is Biblical but you cannot prove that it is.

An assembly is a congregation. If it can't assembly it is not a church/assembly. It defies the definition of the word. You can't go around and change the definition of words just to suit your own sentimental ideas.

This verse, written to the Corinthians, is written in a context that can only be written to a local church. I suggest you read the entire chapter before pulling one verse out of context. The local church is compared to a body where all the members are compared to the members of a functioning local church.
The verse can easily be translated this way:
For in one spirit we are all baptized into one body.
--The rest of the verse mentions Jews, Gentiles, slaves, free men, etc. No matter who we are in the local church we are one in Christ. The spirit mentioned here is a spirit of unity. The Greek pronoun is en, commonly translated "in". "In one spirit," a spirit of unity, do we come together in Christ no matter what our backgrounds are.

And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
(1Co 12:28)
--Chapters 12, 13, 14 of this book speak of spiritual gifts. Look at the context of these three chapters.

Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. (1 Corinthians 12:1)
--In chapter 12, a list is given of all the spiritual gifts. The one given in verse 28 is interesting. It lists them all in order of importance. The reason that "apostles" are listed first is because it was the most important, and only a very few attained to it. Then there were prophets and teachers. We don't have apostles and prophets today. The gift of prophecy has ceased. The apostolic age has ceased. In fact all of those gifts have ceased. Paul was addressing the abuse of the spiritual gifts in the Corinthian churches. These gifts were operative only in the first century.

--Paul is speaking to the church at Ephesus. The church at Ephesus is one body. They were of one spirit. They all had one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, etc. That cannot be held true of most believers on this board. I apparently don't even have the same faith as you do as is apparent with our differences right here on this post. Jude said: Contend for the faith--that body of doctrine in which you believe--not just the plan of salvation. They were one in doctrine; one in faith. They weren't divided by Calvinism. They all had the same faith! That can only be said true of a local church.

Christ is the head of every local church/assembly.

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. (Colossians 1:20)
--There is nothing there about a U-church. Christ died for all. All might have the chance for salvation.

Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; (Col 1:24-25)
The church, whereof I am made a minister can only refer to one church. Paul is not Christ, omnipresent, able to be everywhere at all times. He was made to minister at one church, and one church at a time.

But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) (Eph 4:7-10)
(The gifts were given to the church after He ascended into heaven & offered Himself to God as our sole sacrifice for sins. The church was not empowered with the gifts until Pentecost. No sacrifice+ no Covenant+ no indwelling+ no gifting+ No risen High Priest= NO Covenanted church)
--The gifts that were given in Eph.4: teachers, pastors, evangelists, etc. were given first to the church at Ephesus, and then in application to every Biblical local church. Take things in their context.

The gifts were not given to any hypothetical mystical non-existent church. The Ephesians certainly would not have understood it that way. Paul was writing to them; not some mystical church.

And that is not speaking of a local church. Do you know how to read Scripture in its context?

Rest assured, I do!

Again, there are both concepts taught that there is the Church of Christ Universal, which has local churches within it, like spokes on the big wheel!