Death penalty for fellow Christians

[psalms109:31]

Death penalty

After the crusades, I wouldn't condone it. If they have a conscience let them deal with murder in prison until God takes them and deals with them.

If the government does have it, I will deal with it existence for the purpose of peace.

I use to believe in it, but people in the past have done some hanus things with it.

I do believe that Vengeance is the Lords.

 

[Iconoclast]

The execution of an innocent person is murder. So from your statement above should those state officials who carried out the execution of a person later proven innocent be put to death? Should the judge and jury be punished?

My statement from Numbers 35 has to do with executing a proven murderer, not an innocent person. The death penalty is based on gen 9:6....it is those who are proven to be guilty.
Lawful human government should have safe guards in place so as to not execute innocent persons.
Any false witness, or deliberate execution of any innocent person will be found guilty by God.

We have no right to set aside God's commands as if we offer a better way then he has given us. Allsuch carnal reasonings are sinful.

 

[psalms109:31]

You shall not commit adultery.

Many carnel minded people would love to have their spouse stoned to death for cheating on them, but i quess that is different from murder?

 

[JesusFan]

You shall not commit adultery.

Many carnel minded people would love to have their spouse stoned to death for cheating on them, but i quess that is different from murder?

was God sinning in the OT when He "graced' david from captial penalty?

was jesus when the woman in adultry was not stoned ?

 

[psalms109:31]

was God sinning in the OT when He "graced' david from captial penalty?

was jesus when the woman in adultry was not stoned ?

No, God knows our end and where we will be, so let God bring us where He wants us to be not us.

No one should go unpunished in this world, but there is better way's than the death penalty.

 

[th1bill]

Just as this string has illustrated, the Death Penalty is a tough subject to reconcile! So, before the Death Penalty can ever be dealt with, people must deal with their position, as related to God.

First and foremost, God created everything we see or touch, including ourselves. (Gen. 1 & 2, John 1:1-3) If I purchase an R/C Flight System and build a wood and plastic Airplane or Glider, I am the owner of the product by Common Law. In like manor, God owns you, I and everything in this universe, even the Model Plane I built with His materials! You see, no matter how we struggle with it, God is absolutely sovereign.

Now, I am presently reading the book of Luke on my one year study of the scriptures and in Luke 11:20 we find that the Kingdom of God is not coming but rather, that is, in fact, come upon us right now. The King, Jesus, is your ruler and please note, He is not the President of some democracy, He is King of the Monarchy that rules, not governs, Heaven and the Kingdom of God.

Many are they that incorrectly contend that the New Testament has superseded the Bible Jesus used and taught from, the Old Testament and the God of the Old Testament is no more! This is a great theological problem. In John 1:1-3 we see that Jesus is the God of both Testaments and in Mic. 3:6a we find that God never has nor ever will change!

So you do not like Gen. 9:6, you have a problem that you needed to solve years ago. How much do you intend to obey the King? Any disobedience is sin and unrepented sin is punishable by death, the Second or Eternal death!

I will go so far as to agree that the laws, everywhere there is the ability to use DNA need to be changed. A man or woman should not be sentenced to Death, today, without DNA proof or no less than two eye witnesses. But, above all else, we will either realize we live in, for and because of the Kingdom of God. Anything less than obedience to the Complete Word of God means we are entering into Eternity through the Wide Gate and that leads to the Second Death.

May God touch your hearts and open your Spiritual Eyes and Ears!

 

[psalms109:31]

Hebrews 7:
11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also. 13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is declared:
“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”
18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

 

[canadyjd]

There are several areas where your ideas depart from God's word....1] You have God failing to plan how to spread the gospel...so he has to rely on a convicted murderer to spread the gospel.

God's plan was to use a murderer (Paul) to spread the gospel. It was also His plan to give us scripture through that very man (Paul the murderer) that commands us to follow the example that our Lord Jesus show to Paul, of mercy with perfect patience. I obey the commands of my Lord.

My "ideas" are very simple. When I find scripture that contradicts what I believe, I change my mind to comform to scripture. I use to support the death penalty. Scripture clearly teaches that Christians should not support the death penalty, but rather follow the example of our Lord Jesus Christ in showing mercy with perfect patience with the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul. I changed my mind to comform to God's Word.

Because all sin is forgiven by God for the believer...following your thought...then all criminals who commit crime should be released as soon as the are saved..so they can do missionary service then.

That is the same old red-herring that never dies:smilewinkgrin:. I've answered it already.

2] Paul acted within the law at that time...

:tear:So, by your reasoning, Muslims, in Muslims countries, who execute Christians for being Christians are not committing murder because they are acting within the laws of their country at this time? Really?

Paul killed innocents. I believe God considered it murder, even if you don't.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

Originally Posted by canadyjd http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1730165#post1730165 You're wrong, again. The death penalty is not the work of the cause of Christ in the world that His followers are suppose to be supporting.

Luke 9:54 "And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, 'Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them!?' (55) But He turned and rebuked them and said, 'You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; (56) for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.'"

I don't believe you understand what "kind of spirit you are of".

Col. 3:12 "And so, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience...(14) And beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity."

As you brought to our attention earlier, to support the death penalty is to stand side by side with the world... with radical Muslims, atheists, and Communists.

We are called by our Lord to be of a different spirit than the rest of the world.

freeatleast responded:

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

First, the execution of fellow believers makes you laugh. Now, the words of our Lord Jesus Christ rebuking His disciples for the UnChristlike spirit they were displaying as well as scripture commanding us to have a loving heart with compassion, kindness, humility and gentleness,... makes you laugh.

Sickening

peace to youraying:

 

[Iconoclast]

God's plan was to use a murderer (Paul) to spread the gospel. It was also His plan to give us scripture through that very man (Paul the murderer) that commands us to follow the example that our Lord Jesus show to Paul, of mercy with perfect patience. I obey the commands of my Lord.

My "ideas" are very simple. When I find scripture that contradicts what I believe, I change my mind to comform to scripture. I use to support the death penalty. Scripture clearly teaches that Christians should not support the death penalty, but rather follow the example of our Lord Jesus Christ in showing mercy with perfect patience with the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul. I changed my mind to comform to God's Word.
That is the same old red-herring that never dies:smilewinkgrin:. I've answered it already.
:tear:So, by your reasoning, Muslims, in Muslims countries, who execute Christians for being Christians are not committing murder because they are acting within the laws of their country at this time? Really?

Paul killed innocents. I believe God considered it murder, even if you don't.

peace to youraying:

You are side stepping the issues here
[QUOTEI obey the commands of my Lord.
][/QUOTE]

Ok....here are two of them
1] 5And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.

6Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

2] 30Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die.

31Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death.

33So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it.

Here are two commands that have not been rescinded...obey them all you want....but to rebel against the commands of God is not wise.

When I find scripture that contradicts what I believe, I change my mind to comform to scripture

ok conform your mind to these passages.

Scripture clearly teaches that Christians should not support the death penalty

..this is a falsehood in direct contradiction to the clear word of romans 13;

1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

This is what christians are to obey. It is not up to you to speculate what example might be left for us to figure out however we want.
The government does not bear the sword in vain...they execute wrath on those who do evil......no red herring here.:thumbs:

Demonic muslims who execute christians will be in hell as soon as they leave their body.It is not lawful to execute a believer who has not broken God's law. The ungodly muslim, or whoever else breaks any of the ten commandments....much less murder...will give account at the white throne.

 

[canadyjd]

You are side stepping the issues here

I obey the commands of my Lord.

Ok....here are two of them
1] 5And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.

6Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

There is no command here for the death penalty. It is, most likely, a reference to the ancient Near East practice of the "blood avenger".

Look at the statement carefully. This is a statement that God shall require the life of man by another man. There is no mention of governments at all. Only Noah and his family were alive at this time. God often uses evil men to kill other evil men. That doesn't mean Christians should support the execution of men.

Consider v.6. Is that an "absolute" statement? Is God telling us that each and every time someone is guilty of murder that He will take that man's life?

It can't be an "absolute" statment because we have numerous examples of God not taking the lives of murderers, and using them, in fact, to further His kingdom. Moses, David, Paul, were all murderers for which Gen. 9 apparently didn't apply.

If God shows mercy to murderers, why is it so hard to believe that He would want us to show mercy to murderers? Especially when we have the specific command in I Tim. 1:16 to follow the example of our Lord Jesus to show mercy with perfect patience to the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul?

2] 30Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die.

31Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death.

33So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it.

Here are two commands that have not been rescinded...obey them all you want....but to rebel against the commands of God is not wise.

ok conform your mind to these passages.

Brother, I have conformed my mind to these passages. I understand them in the context they were written and in the light of the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

These commands were given to O.T. National Israel and part of the O.T. Law. Christians are not O.T. National Israel nor are we under the O.T. Law. Paul told us explicitly that if you want to live under the O.T. Law, then you have to keep it all.

I have harmonized my understanding of these scriptures with New Testament passages which command Christians to show mercy with perfect patience. There is no conflict when you understand them in context.

You, apparently, cannot harmonize your understanding of these passages. You ignore the New Testament passages I have quoted and remain firmly focused on O.T. passages in your support for the death penalty.

This is what christians are to obey. It is not up to you to speculate what example might be left for us to figure out however we want.

And here is how you ignore the passage. You refuse to address it. I don't "speculate what example might be left for us to figure out". The passage in I Tim. 1:16 very clearly tells us what example Jesus left for us to imitate. It is the example of showing mercy with perfect patience for the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul.

The reason, imho, that you cannot bring yourself to accept what is clearly taught in I Tim. 1:16 is that you know in your heart that if it is true (and it is) then support for the death penalty is contrary to that command.

The government does not bear the sword in vain...they execute wrath on those who do evil......no red herring here.

No command here for Christian to support the death penalty. Let evil men kill evil men. Let Christians follow the example of their Lord and show mercy with perfect patience.

It is not lawful to execute a believer who has not broken God's law.

Then why did you claim that Paul had not violated the laws of his time when he brought about the death of innocent Christians?

The ungodly muslim, or whoever else breaks any of the ten commandments....much less murder...will give account at the white throne.

And Christians, imho, who supported the execution of fellow believers whom God was using to further the cause of Christ in the world will give an account at the white throne of why they refused to follow the example of their Lord Jesus and show mercy with perfect patience and support the execution of a fellow believer. I'm sure someone will boldly tell Jesus they were just trying to "shower the believer with the blessing of going home" when they supported their execution. If it sounds ridiculous here, and it does, imagine how it will sound before the God of the universe.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

Looks like the poll has moved a little bit.

As of right now, the percentage of those who would support the execution of a fellow believer stands at...

66.6

Yikes!!!

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

... God is absolutely sovereign....The King, Jesus, is your ruler ....He is King of the Monarchy that rules...Heaven and the Kingdom of God.... How much do you intend to obey the King? Any disobedience is sin and unrepented sin is punishable by death, the Second or Eternal death!... Anything less than obedience to the Complete Word of God means we are entering into Eternity through the Wide Gate and that leads to the Second Death....May God touch your hearts and open your Spiritual Eyes and Ears!

I Tim. 1:16 "And yet, for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."

This passage commands us to follow the example of Jesus Christ. It is an "example" that future Christians are to follow. What "example" is given that we are to follow?

The Apostle Paul was a murderer of innocents by his own testimony. He claims to be the "foremost" sinner. Jesus Christ showed mercy to Paul with perfect patience. That is the "example" that Christians are to follow.

Now, to use your own words...

How much do you intend to obey the King?

You have the command before you to follow the example of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ...that you should demonstrate the same kind of mercy with perfect patience with the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul. Support for the death penalty is contrary to that command.

Will you obey your King? Do you really want to explain to the Lord Jesus, why you failed to follow His example of mercy and perfect patience and instead supported the death of fellow believers whom He was using to further His Kingdom?

Remember (again, using your own words)

...Anything less than obedience to the Complete Word of God means we are entering into Eternity through the Wide Gate and that leads to the Second Death

and

May God touch your hearts and open your Spiritual Eyes and Ears!

peace to youraying:

 

[freeatlast]

Standing against the death penalty is to stand against the command of God.

 

[JesusFan]

Standing against the death penalty is to stand against the command of God.

believe that under the Grace/new Covenant era, that the death penalty is allowed/permitted by God, NOT required as under OT system though...

 

[freeatlast]

believe that under the Grace/new Covenant era, that the death penalty is allowed/permitted by God, NOT required as under OT system though...

The problem many times when we say permitted it sounds like we are saying it makes no difference. That is not the case. God did not give it in the OT because He was being harsh. That is His position on how we are to handle murderers. If we claim to be united to Him then we should follow that which is His ways. The death penalty is His way to handle murderers. To not follow this is to stand against God as we think we know a better way.

 

[canadyjd]

...God did not give it in the OT because He was being harsh. That is His position on how we are to handle murderers. If we claim to be united to Him then we should follow that which is His ways. The death penalty is His way to handle murderers. To not follow this is to stand against God as we think we know a better way.

That was not how God "handled" the murderer Moses. That is not how God "handled" the murderer David. That is not how God "handled" the murderer Paul.

Since God has shown mercy to murderers, why do you find it so difficult to believe He would command His followers to show mercy as well? God gave us an example to follow so that we would show mercy to others, just as He has shown mercy to us.

Support the death penalty is contrary to following the example of our Lord Jesus Christ to show mercy with perfect patience to the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul. That is a "better way" and it is not "standing against God"... it is obeying His command found in I Tim. 1:16.

peace to youraying:

 

[JesusFan]

That was not how God "handled" the murderer Moses. That is not how God "handled" the murderer David. That is not how God "handled" the murderer Paul.

Since God has shown mercy to murderers, why do you find it so difficult to believe He would command His followers to show mercy as well? God gave us an example to follow so that we would show mercy to others, just as He has shown mercy to us.

Support the death penalty is contrary to following the example of our Lord Jesus Christ to show mercy with perfect patience to the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul. That is a "better way" and it is not "standing against God"... it is obeying His command found in I Tim. 1:16.

peace to youraying:

That is why i said that God ordained it for capital crime/sin of Murder, but can still do the "Spirit" not letter of the law in His dealings with man...

To me the lord still allows/permits this today, butalso allows for garce to NOT do it, IF there aere/are "mitigating" circumstances, such was in deep south in 60's, where blacks were MUCH more likely to get death penalty for saem crime compared to whites!

 

[canadyjd]

That is why i said that God ordained it for capital crime/sin of Murder, but can still do the "Spirit" not letter of the law in His dealings with man...

To me the lord still allows/permits this today, butalso allows for garce to NOT do it, IF there aere/are "mitigating" circumstances, such was in deep south in 60's, where blacks were MUCH more likely to get death penalty for saem crime compared to whites!

Thank you for your response.

I believe scripture is clear that Christians should not support the death penalty.

peace to youraying:

 

[Sapper Woody]

Christians have no business in the killing business

Wow, I would hate to hear your opinion of me.

a life without parole is a death sentence

A life without parole is still "life". It is not a death sentence, but simply a sentence to live out your life in relative ease with 3 meals, a clean bed, and showers and workout time. Sure, it's not as easy as life outside (for most anyway. See http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/man-robs-bank-medical-care-jail-143625999.html ) but it's still easy.

For those of you who keep touting that we should "show mercy", what about showing mercy on the victim's family (or victim, in the case of a class x felony)? When I was younger, an acquaintance of mine killed both his grandparents. He was a teenager, and admitted to shooting them both. Several people in the church he attended had the fear that he would get out with a light sentence, and then would come after them. For most people, the fear was irrational, he had no interest in them. But what about a rape victim? She/He would have to live with the fear that person will one day get out and come back to them. What about the family of a murder victim? They will have to live either with the same fear, or with the knowledge that the person who murdered their loved one now lives in ease (admittedly, a resticted ease, but ease none the less)?

If God decides to show mercy on a murderer, then that is His right. We do not have that same right, however. We must simply carry out what not only God has ordained (and I've seen no proof yet that this commandment was rescinded), but also what our laws have proclaimed. And our laws are different than those quoted before. Our laws have checks and balances to ensure with as much accuracy as possible that no innocents are jailed/killed. And it is my opinion that more often the guilty party is released than an innocent is condemned. (OJ Simpson, anyone? (Opinion, I know.))