Issues with the slippery slope argument of literal 7-24 hour creationism

[Eric B]

The literal hebrew says "dying that shalt surely die." The immediate spiritual death began immediately the process of dying physcally or deterioration set in the body which made itself manifest in aging and disease. As the genetic virility of humans increasingly weakened so did their longevity.

Romans 8:22-25 makes it clear that all natural creation was effected by the principle of death or what science may call the laws of thermodynamics or the first and second laws of conservation.

OK.
But where do we gather than spiritual death caused physical death? (Including to animals, who are not charged with sin). I guess I too used to take something like that for granted as well, along with "creation" in Rom. 8 meaning the whole universe (which this whole argument seems to hinge on). But the immediate context does seem to be more about the spiritual state of humans. (like the preceding verses, 19-21)

 

[The Biblicist]

OK.
But where do we gather than spiritual death caused physical death? (Including to animals, who are not charged with sin). I guess I too used to take something like that for granted as well, along with "creation" in Rom. 8 meaning the whole universe (which this whole argument seems to hinge on). But the immediate context does seem to be more about the spiritual state of humans. (like the preceding verses, 19-21)

Don't you think that spiritual death - separation from God - is the cause of physical and eternal death? If not, what is?

Why would the whole creation be groaning along with saints if it were not for the same basic problem - sin producing corruption/decay/disruption/death?

 

[Gup20]

So, you are saying that if we take Jesus 'litrerallly' then the beginning of creation was Day 6, not Day 1, or Gen. !:! because that is what a strict literalism gets you at this point. [And there have been some who thought God did it all in one day.]

It appears you've completely missed the point. Jesus quotes Genesis 1:1 - "in the beginning" and then quotes Genesis 1:27 "made them male and female" as though they are one statement. Because of the "and" that begins every verse, this is grammatically correct.

If I said "in the beginning of the movie, they introduce the characters, and have a great action sequence, and show us the end of the movie," you would know that, because of the word "and" the phrase "show us the end of the movie" relates back to the time of "in the beginning of the movie."

Similarly, we know the time of reference for Genesis 1:27 is "in the beginning" as the "and" that starts every verse (because of the YOM character) relates every subsequent verse back to verse 1. Jesus' interpretation in Mark 10:6 is grammatically sound.

Because there is no break in the genealogies, if you insert billions of years between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, then the last 6,000 years is no where near "the beginning" of billions of years of earth's existence, but rather considerably toward the end.

And you really need to study the text of Genesis 1 by reading some sound Bible commentaries. The late Gleason Archer, one of the editors of the Theological Wordbook of the OT (Moody) would not agree with all the nonsense you are proposing.

I take Jesus' interpretation over that of Gleason Archer and Moody. Additionally, there are plenty of PhD scholars who agree with this point of view, so your appeal to authority (rather than making your own argument or providing evidence to the contrary of my argument) is completely fallacious.

I just do my homework reading the works of men who have given their lives to studying it.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;​

Might I suggest you stop studying 3rd party sources and start getting it straight from the primary source - the Bible itself. You should spend less time reading uninspired men's teachings about God-inspired writings and more time reading and studying those inspired writings themselves. Let God Himself guide you in truth while you study His word.

Jhn 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.​

Why are people using physical animal death in relation to these passages? It says "death passed to all men"; not all animals.

It also says "sin entered the world, and death by sin." So death "entered the world" as well. In fact, the first death was an animal that God killed to cover Adam and Eve-

Gen 3:21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.​

Consider that nakedness was sinful, else why were they ashamed? The death of the animal was a covering for that sin. God clearly sets that precedent. Human beings and animals both have life, while plants are never described as having life. The Hebrew term for soulish life is "nephesh chayah" or the "breath of life".

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life(chay); and man became a living(chay) soul(nephesh).​

Humans and animals both were affected because both had "life". It was life that was affected by death. When death entered the world because of Adam's sin, it affected everything with life.

Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.​

Why do you think Able's animal sacrifice was an acceptable sacrifice and Cain's plant offering was not? Because God set the precedent when he gave Adam and Eve the skins of animals to wear that the death of something with soulish life was a substitutional covering for the life that should be taken from the person for their sin. This law of substitution was essential for Jesus to be our substitution. If there was no connection between human and animal life, then animal sacrifice would have been worthless.

 

[Eric B]

Don't you think that spiritual death - separation from God - is the cause of physical and eternal death? If not, what is?

Why would the whole creation be groaning along with saints if it were not for the same basic problem - sin producing corruption/decay/disruption/death?

I used to assume that "creation" was referring to the entire physical universe in that verse. But the context is really talking more about "creatures", waiting for "the manifestation of the sons of God". What really does the entire physical universe have to do with the subject of that chapter?)

It also says "sin entered the world, and death by sin." So death "entered the world" as well. In fact, the first death was an animal that God killed to cover Adam and Eve-

Gen 3:21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.​

Consider that nakedness was sinful, else why were they ashamed? The death of the animal was a covering for that sin. God clearly sets that precedent. Human beings and animals both have life, while plants are never described as having life. The Hebrew term for soulish life is "nephesh chayah" or the "breath of life".

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life(chay); and man became a living(chay) soul(nephesh).​

Humans and animals both were affected because both had "life". It was life that was affected by death. When death entered the world because of Adam's sin, it affected everything with life.

Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.​

Why do you think Able's animal sacrifice was an acceptable sacrifice and Cain's plant offering was not? Because God set the precedent when he gave Adam and Eve the skins of animals to wear that the death of something with soulish life was a substitutional covering for the life that should be taken from the person for their sin. This law of substitution was essential for Jesus to be our substitution. If there was no connection between human and animal life, then animal sacrifice would have been worthless.

But now you're mixing up sacrificial death to pay for sin, with natural death.
Animals are not guilty of sin. God told man only, that he would die (that day which he didn't, physically, don't forget), because of his disobedience. He did not say this for animals.
When they were killed, they were types of the innocent Son of God who is killed, unnaturally, to pay for others' sin.

So maybe Adam would have been physically immortal if he hadn't sinned, since he was made in the image of the immortal God. But the original point I was bringing up was animals, with people arguing "animals couldn't have been living and dying before Adam's sin and death". I think that is really mixing up the two concepts of "death".

 

[Gup20]

But now you're mixing up sacrificial death to pay for sin, with natural death.
Animals are not guilty of sin. God told man only, that he would die (that day which he didn't, physically, don't forget), because of his disobedience. He did not say this for animals.
When they were killed, they were types of the innocent Son of God who is killed, unnaturally, to pay for others' sin.

So maybe Adam would have been physically immortal if he hadn't sinned, since he was made in the image of the immortal God. But the original point I was bringing up was animals, with people arguing "animals couldn't have been living and dying before Adam's sin and death". I think that is really mixing up the two concepts of "death".

Death is death. Natural death is itself punishment for sin. According to Romans 5:12, death didn't exist until after Adam sinned. That death entered the world is God's punishment for Adam's sin. Furthermore, you must understand the way Biblical authority works... Adam had dominion over all of the earth - and specifically over all other creatures on the earth (Genesis 1:26).

1Cr 15:21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.​

Here, we see that death is the enemy of God. It doesn't make sense that God would proclaim each day of creation good saying "and God saw that it was good," (and then after everything was finished he calls it "very good,") if the creation contained death - the enemy of God. By Romans 5:12 and 1 Cor 15:21 we know that there was no death in the world before Adam sinned.

 

[Eric B]

That still presupposes "death" is physical. But the context in Romans suggests spiritual. v. 14 says "death reigned from Adam to Moses". That's not physical death, which obviously goes unchecked way past Moses.
V.15 says "For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many."
The remainder of the chapter speaks abut "sin". That's the "death" it's referring to.

In Corinthians, it does contrast death with the resurrection from the dead, but again, the subject here is animals, who are not promised resurrection.
The same chapter also compares physical death and resurrection to a seed sprouting, so, one, there is some evidence of plant life being seen as "alive" and dying".

Two, this would be seen as part of the "very good" creation, unless that that changed somehow due to the Fall, as well.

 

[Gup20]

That still presupposes "death" is physical. But the context in Romans suggests spiritual. v. 14 says "death reigned from Adam to Moses". That's not physical death, which obviously goes unchecked way past Moses.

I beg to differ. "Death reigned from Adam to Moses even over those who had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression." What was Adam's transgression? Eating the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Paul says here in Romans 5:14 that death had entered the world, and had killed everyone between Adam and Moses even though they didn't break the one and only law in existence - don't eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It says "sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law." In other words, even though they were committing sin, it wasn't charged as sin to them because the law hadn't been given not to do it. Nevertheless, they still died because death was now in the earth. Adam's sin ruined it for everyone and brought death into the world. We know that everyone between Adam and Moses did die (by the genealogies).

V.15 says "For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many."
The remainder of the chapter speaks abut "sin". That's the "death" it's referring to.

Again, I differ. Sin is an action, death is the consequence for sin. They are not one in the same. Romans 5:12 clearly says that by one man sin came into the world, and that death came into the world because of that sin, and that death was passed, (not sin was passed) to all men. So the "passing" of an entity or the inheritance of an entity is the entity of death, not the entity of sin. It says "for all have sinned", so we can see that the inherited death has legal standing because of each individual's sin.

In one view, sin comes into the world and is passed and death is an individual judgement that happens prior to their life. In the other view, sin came into the world, and the whole world was judged with death, and that death is passed on, but the individual will not be judged as an individual until they die.

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.​

Consider that death must be inherited for Jesus to die for us as a sinless man. If sin is inherited, then Jesus would be a sinner and deserve the death he experienced. But death is inherited and at the time of death we are judged as righteous or as sinners. So Jesus died physically, was judged as righteous, and was resurrected because of that righteousness.

In Corinthians, it does contrast death with the resurrection from the dead, but again, the subject here is animals, who are not promised resurrection.
The same chapter also compares physical death and resurrection to a seed sprouting, so, one, there is some evidence of plant life being seen as "alive" and dying".

The Hebrew uses very specific words for soulish life - nephesh chayah. It only uses these terms for people and animals. It also says the "life is in the blood." I haven't studied the Greek equivalents, but it stands to reason they must agree with the Old Testament.

Two, this would be seen as part of the "very good" creation, unless that that changed somehow due to the Fall, as well.

Again plants weren't considered alive, but were rather seen as biological machines for food.

 

[Eric B]

"sin is not imputed when there is no law" refers to the age of grace (Which Romans is a large expounding of). If no one was imputed with sin before Moses, then why would they suffer any penalty of "death" (whichever form it may take) in the first place?
You basically seem to be saying, they weren't sentenced to spiritual death, because they weren't charged with sin, but they were only sentenced to a physical death instead (because of Adam's sin). But death is used as one penalty, of Adam's sin; not two different deaths as two different penalties of two different commands transgressed.

The full Law wasn't codified until Moses, but there was still a universal ("Noahide") law that came after the Fall, which included murder being wrong, for instance. They were held accountable for this, beginning with Cain. Hence, Paul says death reigning "even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression".
Everyone was spiritually dead.

And this is apart of the "sin nature", which is what was passed; (not just "sin" by itself). Jesus did not receive the nature, because He was the Son of God.

Yet again, we're jumping back and forth between man and animals. Man is the one charged with sin, animals are not.

Also, "soulish life" is one thing, but no one here says that plants have souls. The point is, their process of physical death is largely the same as ours.

 

[Gup20]

"sin is not imputed when there is no law" refers to the age of grace (Which Romans is a large expounding of). If no one was imputed with sin before Moses, then why would they suffer any penalty of "death" (whichever form it may take) in the first place?

Romans 5:12 says "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

It says "death passed" it doesn't say "sin passed." Death is inherited, sin is not inherited. Ezekiel 18:20 says "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." So sin is not passed, death is passed, or inherited. This is how Jesus was able to die though he was sinless. If sin was passed, Jesus would have inherited sin. This is why Jesus says "John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins." If you inherit sin and death comes as a judgement to that sin, then you have already been judged before you die. But the scripture says "Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" If our judgement comes after we die, then the death within us is not a result of inheriting sin and being judged, but rather it is the judgement comes after death. This is why Jesus was resurrected... he died having been innocent of sin.

You basically seem to be saying, they weren't sentenced to spiritual death, because they weren't charged with sin, but they were only sentenced to a physical death instead (because of Adam's sin). But death is used as one penalty, of Adam's sin; not two different deaths as two different penalties of two different commands transgressed.

Physical death entered the world as a result of Adam's sin and reigned over those who did not sin the same sin as Adam. I am saying they were not "sentenced" to physical death, they "inherited" it. Many people have only half a view of judgement - they understand only the negative, but not the positive. Judgement can also result in justification! If you are judged innocent after death, you get back your life. Because the Bible clearly says "death is passed" we can know that we inherit death. When we die, we are judged - are you righteous or unrighteous. Because "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" we are all judged unrighteous. All but Christ who was "born under the law" but did not sin (as opposed to those between Adam and Moses who were born without the law, sinned, but their sin was not imputed because there was no law).

The full Law wasn't codified until Moses, but there was still a universal ("Noahide") law that came after the Fall, which included murder being wrong, for instance. They were held accountable for this, beginning with Cain. Hence, Paul says death reigning "even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression".
Everyone was spiritually dead.

That's a good point because God cursed Cain for his murder, so I don't mind including murder with "do not eat from the tree" in the list of pre-mosaic law.

And this is apart of the "sin nature", which is what was passed; (not just "sin" by itself). Jesus did not receive the nature, because He was the Son of God.

Again, the scripture is clear that death was passed, not sin. Jesus himself tells us where the sin nature comes from:

Jhn 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.​

Those who commit sin are in bondage to sin.

Hbr 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.​

Once again, Jesus describes the sin nature very succinctly;

Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.​

Yet again, we're jumping back and forth between man and animals. Man is the one charged with sin, animals are not.

Because there is no law governing animal behavior. Yet God himself used the skin of an animal to cover Adam and Eve when they were naked and had sinned, setting the precedent of atonement.

Also, "soulish life" is one thing, but no one here says that plants have souls. The point is, their process of physical death is largely the same as ours.

Death affected soulish life. Since animals have soulish life, they were affected by death when death entered the world.

Incidentally, after Jesus return doesn't the scripture say that the "wolf shall dwell with the lamb" indicating that by human reconciliation with God, there will also be animal reconciliation to life?

Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.​

​

 

[Eric B]

But I didn't say "sin passed to all men"; I specifically said "sin nature". That's something very different. It's connected more with the "bondage" you referenced. It is what causes us to be inclined to sin, not we just decide to sin for no prior reason, and then come under bondage.

I also don't see any justification for this "soulish life" connection. If there's no law governing animal behavior, why would they be included in what you are arguing is man's punishment? They only played a role of a sinless atonement; and just like Jesus, they could not represent atonement if they themselves were suffering the punishment. Jesus suffers physical punishment, but was spiritually innocent, so He could redeem man from spiritual death. (When physical death is eliminated, that will be part of the blessing, but it is not the primary redemption. Most Christians believe that when the saved die their soul/spirit goes straight to Heaven instead of Hell, so then why would physical death even necessarily figure in that?)

 

[Gup20]

But I didn't say "sin passed to all men"; I specifically said "sin nature". That's something very different. It's connected more with the "bondage" you referenced. It is what causes us to be inclined to sin, not we just decide to sin for no prior reason, and then come under bondage.

What causes men to sin? Where does the sin nature come from?

Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Hbr 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.​

We are in bondage to sin because we fear death. We inherit death because of the curse that came into the world through Adam's sin. However, we are not judged for our individual righteousness or unrighteousness until after we die.

Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:​

You see, we inherit death, and our judgement comes AFTER we die. If we inherited sin, and death came as a reaction to that sin, then when we die it would be the individual judgment... but the scripture says the judgement comes after we die, not before.

The whole world suffers from the curse of death that resulted from Adam's sin.

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.​

Rom 8:21 says the creature will be delivered from the bondage of corruption (fear of death according to Heb 2:15) when we are delivered from death because they were subjected to death because of us.

I also don't see any justification for this "soulish life" connection. If there's no law governing animal behavior, why would they be included in what you are arguing is man's punishment? They only played a role of a sinless atonement; and just like Jesus, they could not represent atonement if they themselves were suffering the punishment. Jesus suffers physical punishment, but was spiritually innocent, so He could redeem man from spiritual death. (When physical death is eliminated, that will be part of the blessing, but it is not the primary redemption. Most Christians believe that when the saved die their soul/spirit goes straight to Heaven instead of Hell, so then why would physical death even necessarily figure in that?)

There are two covenants whereby men can be righteous. Either by faith or by following the law. Jesus did both. He re-unified the body and the spirit. You know how Paul tells us to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh because our sin splits the two. However, Jesus was not split, he was unified.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.


Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:​

Jesus experienced death though he did not sin. This means the death he experienced was not his individual judgement but was his inheritance from the curse that came from Adam's sin. But after his death, he was found righteous (his individual judgement) and therefore he was resurrected.

 

[Eric B]

I've never heard Heb.2:15 expounded like that. We sin because we fear death. I'm not saying it is wrong, as there does seem to be something to that. (I've been thinking a lot of this lately, and realize that much of the compulsion to immediate pleasure is because as they say in the world "you only go around once; get the most you can out of it while you can").

I still don't see where this connects to animal death. Again, they do not have the guilt of sin, or even the rational sense of getting as much as you can out of it; they go purely by instinct. (Which would also be part of the human fear of death).

 

[Gup20]

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.​

Gen 6:11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.​

1Cr 15:39 All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds.​

God destroyed mostly animals in the flood (as the fossil record is a testament to) as well as men. To this day, we find many more animal fossils than human fossils. The flood is another testament to God killing animals for man's sin. But God also saved the animals along with Noah on the ark.

 

[The Biblicist]

What causes men to sin? Where does the sin nature come from?

Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.​

You have quoted the answer you have asked for! We are not in bondage to sin because of "fear" but because of our "own lust" as it is when "lust has conceived, it bringeth forth sin" NOT WHEN "FEAR hath conceived it bringing forth sin"

You fail to understand that the root of sin has to do with MOTIVE behind all you say, think and do. That motive is not fear but SELFISHNESS. That is precisely why sin is in essence coming "short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23) because we are commanded that the proper motive for all that we think or do be "FOR THE GLORY OF GOD."

The root of sin is the heart that "LOVES DARKNESS" and "HATES LIGHT" that is the root of sin and that is the heart which you are BORN with.

In regard to "fear" there is no fear "in perfect love" because love casts out all fear but the lost man's heart from birth is without LOVE as love is something only obtained by new birth. The opposite of LOVE is SELFISHNESS and that is precisely what SIN is by motive - selfishness behind all you say and do.

This SELFISH motive is clearly seen in infants as soon as they are born. If they had the body of an adult they would kill you in a heart beat to get what they want.

Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

Psa. 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Ps 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

LUST is what conceives sin and LUST is SELF-PLEASING! Animals "fear" death but do not sin!!!!!​

 

[Gup20]

You have quoted the answer you have asked for! We are not in bondage to sin because of "fear" but because of our "own lust" as it is when "lust has conceived, it bringeth forth sin" NOT WHEN "FEAR hath conceived it bringing forth sin"

You fail to understand that the root of sin has to do with MOTIVE behind all you say, think and do. That motive is not fear but SELFISHNESS. That is precisely why sin is in essence coming "short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23) because we are commanded that the proper motive for all that we think or do be "FOR THE GLORY OF GOD."

I submit for your consideration that fear is an act of selfishness. If you think about what fear is - it is consideration of self, self's needs, and a negative expectation that self will be damaged in some way.

The root of sin is the heart that "LOVES DARKNESS" and "HATES LIGHT" that is the root of sin and that is the heart which you are BORN with.

In regard to "fear" there is no fear "in perfect love" because love casts out all fear but the lost man's heart from birth is without LOVE as love is something only obtained by new birth. The opposite of LOVE is SELFISHNESS and that is precisely what SIN is by motive - selfishness behind all you say and do.

I agree, and this proves my point. By the way, it doesn't say perfect love casts out selfishness, it says perfect love casts out fear because FEAR and LOVE are opposites.

1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.​

The word for "love" here is agape love, which is the God kind of love.

1Cr 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,
5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,​

Love is the opposite of selfishness, but in 1 John 4:18 we see that love is the opposite of fear. Therefore I think it safe to say that fear and selfishness are synonymous.

This SELFISH motive is clearly seen in infants as soon as they are born. If they had the body of an adult they would kill you in a heart beat to get what they want.

Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

Psa. 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Ps 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

LUST is what conceives sin and LUST is SELF-PLEASING! Animals "fear" death but do not sin!!!!!

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.​

Consider that Adam and Eve, prior to the fall and prior to sin lusted after the forbidden fruit and wanted to be "like God, knowing good and evil." Consider the following verses:

1Cr 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

1Cr 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual [gifts], but rather that ye may prophesy.

1Cr 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

2Cr 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present [you as] a chaste virgin to Christ.

Hbr 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.​

So there seems to be a godly form of desire - or at the very least lust and desire falls short of being called sin. Indeed don't we all come to Christ out of a desire for eternal life and forgiveness from sin? Isn't this ultimately self-serving and selfish?

Here is how I see it - it is a progression (progressive if you will): lust (selfish desire) leads to sin. Sin leads to death. Once we have sinned and deserve death, we fear death and are thereby enslaved to our sin. We are in bondage to the master of death because of our sin, forced by self-preservation to act opposite or contrary to love - forced to be self seeking in order to sustain life rather than the original design which is to have life and have it abundantly. We hold tightly to the darkness because the light would expose our evil deeds and demonstrate our guilt and necessitate our death. We fear death, so we remain enslaved to sin, thereby being subjected to a sin nature to prolong our life.

 

[The Biblicist]

I submit for your consideration that fear is an act of selfishness. If you think about what fear is - it is consideration of self, self's needs, and a negative expectation that self will be damaged in some way.

Pride not fear is the root of selfishness! It was not fear that was at the root of either Eve's sin or Adam's sin but pride. It was pride at the root of Satan's fall not fear. Spiritual death was not the consequence of fear but of pride. Moses makes it very clear that they would die in the very day they ate and that was not physical death but spiritual death.

Gen. 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. {thou shalt surely…: Heb. dying thou shalt die}


The scriptures make it very clear that sin separates a person from God not fear

Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Eph. 2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Spiritual death is a result of sin and it was their FEAR of God that manifested their SEPARATION from God had ALREADY OCCURRED due to SIN!

Here is how I see it - it is a progression (progressive if you will): lust (selfish desire) leads to sin. Sin leads to death.

Sin separated Adam from God immediately "in" the day he ate and death occurred immediately upon sin - spiritual death.

We hold tightly to the darkness because the light would expose our evil deeds and demonstrate our guilt and necessitate our death. We fear death, so we remain enslaved to sin, thereby being subjected to a sin nature to prolong our life.

Not so! We do not hold "tightly" to darkness but "LOVE" darkness and "HATE" light and that alone is why we are enslaved to sin. So it is "LOVE" not "fear" that keeps us in bondage to sin.

 

[Gup20]

Pride not fear is the root of selfishness! It was not fear that was at the root of either Eve's sin or Adam's sin but pride. It was pride at the root of Satan's fall not fear. Spiritual death was not the consequence of fear but of pride. Moses makes it very clear that they would die in the very day they ate and that was not physical death but spiritual death.

We could go round and round debating fear and pride and which is more "selfish". The truth is that both fear and pride are selfish acts, and neither are mentioned by name in Genesis. I could say that it was fear of being lied to by God that lead Eve to be deceived, or I could quote John 14:15 (if you love me, keep my commandments) and then argue that all sin was the opposite of loving God and love casts out fear...

Gen. 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. {thou shalt surely…: Heb. dying thou shalt die}

Right - dying though shalt die... in other words, you will begin the process of dying, and you will surly be dead (physical and spiritual death). Had God not instituted a blood sacrifice, (he killed animals to make skins for Adam and Eve to wear) perhaps they would have died immediately. Something died immediately though (those animals).

The scriptures make it very clear that sin separates a person from God not fear

Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Eph. 2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

I agree with you. I didn't say fear separated you from God.

Spiritual death is a result of sin and it was their FEAR of God that manifested their SEPARATION from God had ALREADY OCCURRED due to SIN!

Sin separated Adam from God immediately "in" the day he ate and death occurred immediately upon sin - spiritual death.

I agree.... and physical death as well.

In Matthew 5:9, Mark 2:9, and Luke 5:23 Jesus says "which is easier to say, your sins are forgiven or rise up and walk?"

Jesus statements show clearly that sin effected physical death, sickness, and disease and that forgiveness of sin meant freedom from these ailments. That the same faith (faith in Jesus Christ) that saves men's spirits also heals their bodies from sickness and death. It demonstrates that the separation is not just spiritual, but also physical.

Not so! We do not hold "tightly" to darkness but "LOVE" darkness and "HATE" light and that alone is why we are enslaved to sin. So it is "LOVE" not "fear" that keeps us in bondage to sin.

No man can serve two masters... for either he will hate the one and love the other. God defines love as obeying his commandments in John 14.

 

[The Biblicist]

The truth is that both fear and pride are selfish acts, and neither are mentioned by name in Genesis.

However, it is the cause in the very first sin in the universe - the fall of Satan and it is Satan who seduced Eve with "the pride of life" (I Jn. 2:
16).

However, you are right about one thing! Fear is NEVER referred to in Genesis or the fall of Satan or in the temptation list given by John to describe the fall.