Preterism is the only honest way to understand bible prophecy

[Logos1]

DHK,

I wonder does it all just go over your head or are you purposely twisting scripture here—I mean seriously man.

The book of Acts was not written to the Apostles it was written to convince a wider audience not familiar with Jesus that he was the true Messiah. It tells of the events of the Apostles. The Apostles lived out the events they don’t need convincing of who Christ was it was their job to witness to others. Acts is a story about those events.

A less loving brother might accuse you of denseness.

 

[Logos1]

Secret decoder ring

Steve,

If nothing else you certainly provided some great laugh lines here. This is almost up there with Last days when he gets wound up and a good head of steam going.

Did you read what you wrote…I am not a Futurist. I am Amil or Realised Millennial. Nice that you are not a premil…Amil is a nice first step in the right direction, but that still makes you a futurist (and you think I have crazy theories, LOL So what are you a “RightThisMomentMil”). You and Last Days should get together and publish a blog or something. He could set some dates and you could flesh out the details. I know I would read every post.

Steve says…First of all I did specifically address verse 9.

I think that should read …first of all you did specifically twist the passage into broken pieces…but why keep covering the same ground with you.
I don’t have time to go deep into horao so just for the sake of argument let’s just say you are totally right about the shared meaning being part time eyeballs and part time discernment. Just how do you know eyeballs is the correct interpretation of Rev 1:7—and the answer is because you wish to define it that way just like you take other verses that don’t say anything about a physical return and read your narrow meaning into them. You still didn’t find a single verse that actually said Christ would return in a physical body—all you have is your spin on a verse here and there. This is what you build your theology on? I would say it is kind of sad, but I don’t want to hurt your feelings so you just go right on building my friend if it makes you feel better. I’ll even help you look for some other verses you can anchor your beliefs on.

What really fascinates me is your mercurial obsession with Job 19. Spock would probably say “Fascinating” three times here.

So you read that Job will see his Redeemer stand upon the earth on the last day and you invent the return of Christ in a physical, bodily form out of that. Fascinating indeed my friend. It seems you have a secret decoder ring to reveal hidden meanings to you.

You seem so attached to this notion that it is cruel to point out to you that it didn’t say anything about a return of Christ or anybody else in that passage.

If you read the surrounding verses for context they aren’t discussing the return of Christ here nor anybody’s else’s return either. This verse-in your context-is just hanging up in the air anchored to nothing.

The possibilities abound for reading what you want in that passage. I don’t try to make a preterist thing out of it, but I could get just as dogmatic about its meaning as you do if I wanted to. Last day could mean the last day of the old covenant in 70AD when the temple is destroyed and Christ in allegorical form by virtue of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit’s presence indwelling man stands on the earth. That would work too.

Verse 29 says “be afraid of the sword for wrath brings punishment of the sword that you may know there is a judgment.” Now I could say that is a reference to Christ coming in judgment on Jerusalem in 70 AD if I wanted to use your line of reasoning. I try to anchor my assertions on a little more concrete and consistent scripture references than that though. But if we wanted to tie this chapter to preterism or a physical, bodily return of Christ preterism would stand towering over any feeble notion of a physical return here—but I don’t see inventing meanings out of desperation here not even for my point of view.

Like said earlier we need to get you and Last Days together for some really side splitting interpretations on the scripture.

I hope you will at least share some more secrets from your secret decoder ring. Do you see a good recipe for corn beef hash in Chapter 19 any where?

 

[Logos1]

Another day of ever building frustration for futurists. Every day adds to their consternation. Every passing day makes them look more wrong and enhances hyper preterism’s standing. Ten billion years from now if these same people were alive they would be just as dogmatic about a soon return of Christ not meaning soon and blathering on about how a day is as a thousand years is to the lord and a thousand years is a day and how we don’t understand God’s time table and how he didn’t mean quickly the same way we use the term and so forth and so on ad infinitum.

Oh it’s sad alright, but when preconceived notions are pushed just a little to the side for biblical truth to see the light of day a wonderful and refreshing view of biblical interpretation known as preterism can enlighten the heart of even the darkest futurist.

 

[Iconoclast]

Sounds like a book with possibilities that I might like to read when time permits. I don’t have to agree with everything in it to read it and get something out of it. I like to expose myself to different view points and challenge my own thinking.

The Parousia by Russell was an early preterist influence on me. So was the Beast of Revelation by Gentry.

All of Don Preston’s books have been worth reading. He has been the single biggest influence
Who is this Babylon
Like Father like Son
70 Weeks are determined for
We Shall meet him in the Air
I especially liked The elements shall meet with Fervent Heat

Last Days Maddness Obession of the Modern Day church is a good place for those thinking about Preterism to pick up some nice points.

Preston has many good articles posted online.

Preterism is gaining such a following now that there are many good articles published online. Just in the last few years I’ve seen it grow exponentially

Before reading any of these having read How to Read the Bible by Fee and Stuart (nothing really to do with preterism) does an excellent job of helping laymen tie together the bible and begin to grasp it has coherent books that have strands running through them linking one to another. It really helps see the later chapters of Deuteronomy spread their tentacles through the remainder of the bible. Then when you are exposed to Preterism it helps to grasp it quicker and more completely.

Among other’s Koester’s Symbolism in the Fourth Gospel knits together your thinking well beyond just the book of John.

:thumbs::thumbs: thanks for the book references...i have been working on Deut 28-33--- with mt 20-25 for a few years now..this book might help me

 

[revmwc]

I think you got started off so well rev and ended up so badly here. Don’t you see he prepared a place for us and came back in 70AD to bring us into it when the old covenant ended. There ain’t no in between covenant. We had no place to go except into the New Covenant. At that point we now get to go to heaven when we die. If he didn’t come for us then that would mean we still don’t go to heaven when we die—every preacher who tells a grieving family their love one has gone to be with the Lord is espousing a hyper preterist position! Sweet.

If you don’t see a very specific time table (specific as in the first generation not the exact day on a calendar) of soon as in the first generation as told by Christ himself and affirmed by the apostles then your argument is not with me, but with Christ Himself and the Apostles. Sorry rev that is just way the bible reads whether your preconceived notions let you accept it or not.

So if as you say He came back in 70 A.D. I am in the dwelling place He prepared for me and it is here on earth. But what happens when I die there is no place prepared for me. Since as you say He came and we are in His Kingdom and He will never return to earth then there is no hope of ressurection which makes all the references to the bodily ressurection taught by Paul, the Apostles and even spoken of by Christ as null and void. Since the ressurection as you see it would have occured in 70 A.D. we have no hope and no place in heaven.
Sorry I don't see that taught in scripture. Jesus said He would return for us, while it was directed to His disciples the scripture applies to all who believe.
Again the generation you speak and want attribute to the generation living in Christ time is a mis-interpretation. You seem to dispell what Jesus said " 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" what things?

Jesus said "Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."
Many will come in Christ name - continues to happen
We shall hear of wars and rumors of wars - still hearing of them
Then He said this "but the end is not yet."

So the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D according to Christ did not represent the end the end was not yet.

Then He continues:

Nation will rise against nation and Kingdom against Kingdom - still happening
Famine and Pestilences will come - still happening world wide
Earthquakes in different areas - becoming more frequent

Then He said "All these are the beginning of sorrows" so the destruction ofthe temple in 70 A.D was not the ending but part of the beginning.

They shall deliver the believer up to be afflicted and killed - still happening in many countries
"then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another" again stil happening but this seems to indicate an even stronger period will occur.
many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many - David Koresh and Jim Jones come to mind
iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. - no wonder sin is getting stronger and stronger

Jesus said this : "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come"

Then He made this statement:
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25Behold, I have told you before.
26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
This has not yet occured the tribulation is yet to come.

Then He said this:
32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

The end is approaching when all these things begin to take shape, in other words His kingdom is near even at the doors when ALL these things listed above are seen.

Then we see the generation you refer to and are interpreting as the generation of Christ day:
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
All these things must be fulfilled for the generation to pass away. Since the generation of Christ time has long passed away from this earth and not all these things have been fulfilled that must mean that He refers to a different generation than that of His day.
So what generation the generation that sees all these things come to fruition and must be fulfilled for the generation that sees all these things come to pass. That means it just might be ours, since God is longsuffering and not willing that any should perish, He is waiting (longsuffering) for folks to come to Him. Sorry when broken down your generation arguement is empty and wanting try something else to prove your point. God operates in His time not man's so if Christ doesn't return for another 1000 years it doesn't change the fact that He WILL RETURN for His Bride first then 7 years later to set up His Earthly Messianic Kingdom after all these things are fulfilled.

 

[revmwc]

Another day of ever building frustration for futurists. Every day adds to their consternation. Every passing day makes them look more wrong and enhances hyper preterism’s standing. Ten billion years from now if these same people were alive they would be just as dogmatic about a soon return of Christ not meaning soon and blathering on about how a day is as a thousand years is to the lord and a thousand years is a day and how we don’t understand God’s time table and how he didn’t mean quickly the same way we use the term and so forth and so on ad infinitum.

Oh it’s sad alright, but when preconceived notions are pushed just a little to the side for biblical truth to see the light of day a wonderful and refreshing view of biblical interpretation known as preterism can enlighten the heart of even the darkest futurist.

Isn't it great that we are one day closer to our Lord's return! We are not one day further away from having been left with no hope of salvation or spending eternity with Christ if the futruist are right. Since Christ said and Paul taught Christ would come for His Bride the preterist take hope of His keeping His promise away and make Christ a liar giving man no hope.

 

[DHK]

DHK,

I wonder does it all just go over your head or are you purposely twisting scripture here—I mean seriously man.

The book of Acts was not written to the Apostles it was written to convince a wider audience not familiar with Jesus that he was the true Messiah. It tells of the events of the Apostles. The Apostles lived out the events they don’t need convincing of who Christ was it was their job to witness to others. Acts is a story about those events.

A less loving brother might accuse you of denseness.

The book of Acts records "The Acts of the Apostles." It was written by Luke to a man called Theophilus. In a much wider application it was written to us all for it is a history book; Volume 2 of Luke's two volume set, his first volume being the Life of Christ.

It is plainly recorded that the disciples saw Christ ascend. To deny this fact is to deny Scripture itself. How you can wiggle around these verses, I don't know. They plainly state (in two separate verses) that Christ was seen visibly ascending into heaven.

Furthermore, the Book of Revelation, written 96-98 A.D., has John praying for the Lord to come as the very last prayer of the book. In that same chapter we have Jesus himself promising to come three different times. We know this book was written sometime in the 90's because that is when the emperor Domitian banished John to the Isle of Patmos. That is the only time that he ruled as emperor. All of history speaks against you.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Steve,

Did you read what you wrote…I am not a Futurist. I am Amil or Realised Millennial. Nice that you are not a premil…Amil is a nice first step in the right direction, but that still makes you a futurist (and you think I have crazy theories, LOL So what are you a “RightThisMomentMil”). You and Last Days should get together and publish a blog or something. He could set some dates and you could flesh out the details. I know I would read every post.

Clearly you do not know what Amillennialism is. I will just say that if words have any meaning then a realized Millennium cannot be a future one. :laugh:
If you want to understand Amil then I recommend More than Conquerors
by William Hendricksen.

Steve says…First of all I did specifically address verse 9.

I think that should read …first of all you did specifically twist the passage into broken pieces…but why keep covering the same ground with you.

I appreciate that you would like to leave Acts 1 alone since it is the death blow to Hyper-Preterism, but I don't want to leave it just yet.

I don’t have time to go deep into horao

Correction. You have been caught out in an error and are trying to back off.

so just for the sake of argument let’s just say you are totally right about the shared meaning being part time eyeballs and part time discernment. Just how do you know eyeballs is the correct interpretation of Rev 1:7—and the answer is because you wish to define it that way just like you take other verses that don’t say anything about a physical return and read your narrow meaning into them.

No, for two reasons. Firstly, because the basic meaning of horao is to see physically. Look it up in a Analytical lexicon like Bagsters. It is the root verb for sight, and its derivatives include horama, a thing seen, sight, appearance; horasis, seeing, sight, appearance; horatos, visible (Col 1:16); and even ophthalmos, an eye. As with the English word 'see,' horao can have the meaning of 'perceive,' but as with the English, it is not its normal meaning and it should be translated as being physical sight unless there is a compelling reason otherwise, and there isn't.

Secondly, and even more importantly, there is the context. The text says 'Every eye shall see Him.' It doesn't say, 'Every mind shall perceive Him.' It indicates physical observance.

You still didn’t find a single verse that actually said Christ would return in a physical body

Yes I did. Acts 1:-11 which is utterly clear as I and others have patiently explained to you. You are in denial about it, but that is your problem, not mine. I have helped you as much as I can. Also Job 19 (see below). Now, if you're so clever, how many texts can you find that 'actually' say that Christ will return invisibly? And how would anyone know if He did?

What really fascinates me is your mercurial obsession with Job 19. Spock would probably say “Fascinating” three times here.

So you read that Job will see his Redeemer stand upon the earth on the last day and you invent the return of Christ in a physical, bodily form out of that. Fascinating indeed my friend. It seems you have a secret decoder ring to reveal hidden meanings to you.

You seem so attached to this notion that it is cruel to point out to you that it didn’t say anything about a return of Christ or anybody else in that passage.

OK. Let's look at the verses.

Job 19:25-27, NKJV. 'For I know that my Redeemer lives, and that He shall stand at last on the earth: and after my skin is destroyed, this I know, that in my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. How my heart yearns within me.'

Now then, do you believe that Job had another redeemer than Christ? No? Then it is Christ who shall stand 'at last' upon the earth. Now the Hebrew word ranslated 'at last' is aharon. Like a lot of Hebrew words, it has several meanings, but its usual one is 'last' (2Sam 19:11f & Isaiah 41:4 where God is called the First and the Last) or 'finally' (2Sam 2:26; 1Kings 17:13). It could refer to our Lord's first coming, but did Job observe that in his flesh? I think not. Did Job observe with his eyes in his flesh the 'invisible coming' of Christ in AD70? Nope. But when our Lord comes again in power with His Holy angels at the end of time, very eye shall see Him, as will Job as He rises in his new resurrection body at the sound of the trumpet (1Cor 15:52).

So Christ will stand on the earth on the Last Day (ie. Physical Return of Christ), and Job will see Him with his own eyes. I rest my case.

The possibilities abound for reading what you want in that passage. I don’t try to make a preterist thing out of it, but I could get just as dogmatic about its meaning as you do if I wanted to. Last day could mean the last day of the old covenant in 70AD when the temple is destroyed and Christ in allegorical form by virtue of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit’s presence indwelling man stands on the earth. That would work too.

Obviously not, unless you suppose a physical resurrection for Job in AD70.

Verse 29 says “be afraid of the sword for wrath brings punishment of the sword that you may know there is a judgment.” Now I could say that is a reference to Christ coming in judgment on Jerusalem in 70 AD if I wanted to use your line of reasoning.

No, for the same reason. Job is speaking of his physical resurrection ('in my flesh'). That day will be a day of great joy for believers, but for unbelievers it will be their day of judgement.

I try to anchor my assertions on a little more concrete and consistent scripture references than that though.

:laugh:

Steve

 

[Logos1]

Rev,

Top of the evening to you Rev!

Thank you for asking about the dwelling place prepared for us—it is a great question.

You see it is heaven.

When Christ came back in 70 AD as promised when he said he would prepare a place for us and come back this means that now we get to go to heaven when we die.

Pretty simple really—up to that time the bible tells that no one had gone to heaven except the one who came from there. Remember your John 3:13.

Also remember the end of the age (the old covenant age (last days)—not the end of time-the bible doesn’t talk about the end of time) is when Christ returns which as it turned out was 70 AD.

The end of the age, destruction of the temple, and his return were linked together in Matthew 24:1-4 and Christ’s answer. This is the point where you can now enter into heaven when you die. As John pointed out until then you can’t go into heaven upon death you get to wait in Sheol, but thankfully for us we now can go straight to heaven upon death.

You are right to say we are now in His Kingdom which is also known as the New Covenant. An age without end.

I think we can neatly wrap up the balance of your post with the words of Christ in Matt 24:34 when he said this generation will not pass till all these things come to pass.

I find it rewarding to know that every pastor who tells a grieving family that their loved one is now present with the Lord is advocating a hyper preterist view. If it were a futurist view then he would have to tell them their loved one is waiting in Sheol till our Lord’s return. Which view do you thing grieving wants to buy into futurist or full preterist. Hmm shoel or heaven? I think there are a lot of preterists out there among those who have lost loved ones.
And, obviously with good reason.

 

[Logos1]

DHK,

I’m glad to see you are broadening your view of who the intended audience is for the book of Acts.

I see we have finally found common ground here on the Apostles seeing Christ ascend. Progress my friend.

Might we also have common ground on verse 9 After He had said this, He was taken up as they were watching, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

You don’t really want to argue that verse 9 says they saw him go into heaven do you?
Might we also agree that verse 11 has the two angels telling the Apostles that he came into heaven and that is how they know where he went after he left their sight.

Doesn’t that make a more believable story to pass on too your audience than saying someone left your sight, but then trying to tell them where he went even though you just admitted you can’t see them any more. Can’t we let common sense apply to reading the bible as to any other endeavor. In the long-run don’t you think that will win more converts to Christ than trying force a certain view point down their throat.

Maybe it’s time to think about these things and whether or not you want to advocate a future return of Christ when he said he was coming back quickly.

Again a little common sense seems in order. How many people are you going to impress telling people Christ is coming back soon when the wait is already 2,000 years?

How many people are you going to impress telling them Christ is coming back in a physical body—when you can’t find a scripture reference that actually says that and all you can offer them is an “interpretation” to make your point instead of actual verses.

On that note I’ll leave you to mull things over a little.

 

[Logos1]

Steve,

Greetings my old friend,

Don’t waste your worry time on whether I know what amillennialism is—I’m versed in the standard definitions of that model. Now you of course are entitled to your own unique and whimsical definition which I might not be familiar with, but I digress. The main point here is the return of Christ. So do you think he has already come back or do you think that time is still in the future? If you put that event in the future then you good sir are a futurist. And, if so you don’t have to hide it many of your friends here at BB are futurists as well.

We can spend as much time in Acts 1 as you like. I find it to be a very affirming passage as a preterist. I think you could help your cause if you could find an actual reference to a physical return of Christ as opposed to a mere interpretation.

Your Greek and explanation of horao seems caught up in circular references. Even the verse you gave in support two posts back John 9:37 works against your own interpretation. Let’s look at the verses around it for contest.

John 9:36-40
35 When Jesus heard that they had thrown the man out, He found him and asked, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?"
36 "Who is He, Sir, that I may believe in Him?" he asked.
37 Jesus answered, "You have seen Him; in fact, He is the One speaking with you."
38 "I believe, Lord!" he said, and he worshiped Him.
39 Jesus said, "I came into this world for judgment, in order that those who do not see will see and those who do see will become blind."
40 Some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and asked Him, "We aren't blind too, are we?"

It is very clear the Pharisees aren’t talking about see with their eyeballs, but discern with their mind.

If I were less of a gentleman I would be very tempted to observe your Greek is more of a side show to look impressive than the work of a real scholar, but I won’t go there. Even my friends with a sour disposition deserve some slack.

Your on going devotion to Job 19 still fascinates me dearly. I’ve even attempted to help you look to find any passage there where it actually says Christ will return in bodily form, but I can’t find it either.

The best either of us can do is find a redeemer who stands at the last. Just darn that verse it still won’t give up a physical return of Christ in so many words will it. And, clearly the last is a reference to the last days--the last day if you will. Notice not the end of time, but the last day which ties into the last days as the term is used in the bible. The last days of the Old Covenant. And there at the last day is our redeemer who didn’t come back to earth at the end of the Old Covenant at the destruction of the temple in 70 AD in physical form—no wonder the verse didn’t claim a physical, bodily return. At the conclusion of the last days Job could be redeemed and now be reconciled back to God through his redeemer and enter into the presence of God in heaven.

But enough with this dilly dallying around. I accept your challenge when you said:

“Now, if you're so clever, how many texts can you find that 'actually' say that Christ will return invisibly?”

But before I go there why don’t we make it really count for something and settle the issue once and for all.

Let’s man up and put our bible verses where our mouth is.

Let’s agree if you can show an actual verse where it says Christ will return in bodily form and I can’t match you verse for verse that says invisible then I have to renounce preterism and become a futurist, but if I have more verses then you have to renounce futurism and become a preterist. Sound fair?

And, let me add Steve that I’m warming up the band and rolling out the red carpet to give you the royal treatment on your conversion to preterism. I’m even going to get out my little kazoo and pipe you aboard personally.

 

[Logos1]

Another’s days worth of post from the most ardent futurists and still nothing to refute the soon return of Christ in his generation just at the bible claimed.

If they bible had one verse in it that says he would come back in another generation or a long time into the future I believe one of these fine gentlemen would have found it by now.

It almost seems like beating them up to keep pointing out that there are no bible verses with a time element in them that don’t get specific about Christ’s soon return.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Another’s days worth of post from the most ardent futurists and still nothing to refute the soon return of Christ in his generation just at the bible claimed.

If they bible had one verse in it that says he would come back in another generation or a long time into the future I believe one of these fine gentlemen would have found it by now.

It almost seems like beating them up to keep pointing out that there are no bible verses with a time element in them that don’t get specific about Christ’s soon return.

You have two utterly clear texts. Deal with those first. You haven't begun to do so yet.

There is a very good reason why there are no specific references to a date for our Lord's return. 'But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the father. take heed and watch and pray, for you do not know when the time is' (Mark 13:33).

If our Lord had said to His disciples, "Well cheerio, chaps! I'll see you again in 3,000 years or so," there would have been no incentive for the to watch and pray. We are to believe that the Lord may return any day, and live in the light of that belief. That is what God's will was in AD 30; it is God's will for us today.

And, let me add Steve that I’m warming up the band and rolling out the red carpet to give you the royal treatment on your conversion to preterism. I’m even going to get out my little kazoo and pipe you aboard personally.

Dream on! :sleeping_2:

Steve

 

[revmwc]

Rev,

Top of the evening to you Rev!

Thank you for asking about the dwelling place prepared for us—it is a great question.

You see it is heaven.

When Christ came back in 70 AD as promised when he said he would prepare a place for us and come back this means that now we get to go to heaven when we die.

Pretty simple really—up to that time the bible tells that no one had gone to heaven except the one who came from there. Remember your John 3:13.

Also remember the end of the age (the old covenant age (last days)—not the end of time-the bible doesn’t talk about the end of time) is when Christ returns which as it turned out was 70 AD.

The end of the age, destruction of the temple, and his return were linked together in Matthew 24:1-4 and Christ’s answer. This is the point where you can now enter into heaven when you die. As John pointed out until then you can’t go into heaven upon death you get to wait in Sheol, but thankfully for us we now can go straight to heaven upon death.

You are right to say we are now in His Kingdom which is also known as the New Covenant. An age without end.

I think we can neatly wrap up the balance of your post with the words of Christ in Matt 24:34 when he said this generation will not pass till all these things come to pass.

I find it rewarding to know that every pastor who tells a grieving family that their loved one is now present with the Lord is advocating a hyper preterist view. If it were a futurist view then he would have to tell them their loved one is waiting in Sheol till our Lord’s return. Which view do you thing grieving wants to buy into futurist or full preterist. Hmm shoel or heaven? I think there are a lot of preterists out there among those who have lost loved ones.
And, obviously with good reason.

You problem is Christ said He would come back and take us that means a physical ressurection and if as you say He returned in 70 A.D. there is no physical ressurection for us. Paul said we would not all see death but many of us would be changed.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Notice here as true flesh and blood we cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, our flesh and blood is corrupt.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Then Paul says we shall not all sleep but we shall be changed what will be changed our flesh and blood body will be changed.

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

It will occur quickly in a moment in a twikling of an eye at the last trump, here is where your 70 A.D. belief has problems, by your belief the last trump has already occured. But this corruption, that is our physical fleshly body with the Old Sin NATURE will be put on incorruption, that is no blood no flesh that can decay and no old sin nature, but a perfect Glorious incorruptable body. The mortal body that dies will become immortal and death and the grave are conquered by the Lord Jesus Christ.


57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
We have victory over death and the grave and we will have a glorious body and be fully and entirely complete because of our Salvation by Grace through Faith in Christ Jesus. Complete in Body, Soul and Spirit completely immortal and incorruptable and this will occur for every true believer in The Church when, Paul says at the Last trump.

He said our BODY would be changed
Phillipians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
And we would have a glorious body as He (The Lord Jesus Christ) has and that will only occur when He returns for His bride.

1 Thessalonians 4 Paul says we will meet Christ in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord and we are to comfort one another with these word.

There is no comfort to be found in the preterist view, by that view we as believers will never see completion, never see perfection, never see our Body, Soul and Spirit united in a Glorious, Immortal and Incorruptable Body like Christ has we will never be fully complete in Christ according to your teaching.

My Belief is in a Savior who can accomplish this task His name is Jesus and He is the Christ and He said He would return for us and have a Dwelling place for us and that dwelling is where He is. Paul said we will meet Him in the air with the dead rising first and that is not their soul but their body and the soul and spirit are with Christ and we meet them in the air and so we are ever with the Lord.
Hallelujah Praise God we are one day closer to that occuring.

 

[revmwc]

Another’s days worth of post from the most ardent futurists and still nothing to refute the soon return of Christ in his generation just at the bible claimed.

If they bible had one verse in it that says he would come back in another generation or a long time into the future I believe one of these fine gentlemen would have found it by now.

It almost seems like beating them up to keep pointing out that there are no bible verses with a time element in them that don’t get specific about Christ’s soon return.

Oh it was refuted you just missed it post 65 shows that the generation that sees the fulfillment of ALL those things is the generation that will not pass away, the generation of Christ time did not see the full completion of all those things so you need to rethink your generation arguement and understand that the word quickly is like Paul said Christ will come in a twinkling of eye and that is very quikly accomplished. 1 Peter 3 pretty much sums up the fact that God is suffering long for folks to come to repentence and be saved so there you have your verse that says it will be a long patient wait by God before He sends His Son to get His Bride, The Father is waiting on her to be fully prepared and it is a long patient God we have.

Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

Notice verse 5 the Bridgroom Tarried, the bride waited a long time for Him to come and He tarried until the midnight hour. The last of the Brides preparation period, now is Israel the Bride or is the Church the Bride?
Israel is not refered to as Christ Bride. The Church definitely is and the Bride will be witing and preparing her lamp having the indwelling Holy Spirit (oil) in her lamp and waiting while the Bridegroom (Christ) tarries, then at the last hour HE is announced as Coming. Paul says it will be with a shout (the Bridegroom is coming) and with a Trumpet (the Bridegroom is coming) and we will go out and meet Him in the air and so will the Bride (the Chruch) ever be with her Bridgegroom the Lord Jesus Christ. Notice verse 10 of Matthew 25 "And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut."
So Christ let us know very clearly that His return would be a long wait that He would tarry until the Bride was ready. The marriage occurs at the Home of the Bridegroom not the Bride and so Paul saying we would meet Him in the air and return and be with Him forever follows the pattern of the ancient Jewish wedding.
So now you have a verse you can hang your hat on that says the Lords return will be a long time for He will tarry.
To help you out with the English word tarry here is websters definition:
1. a. to delay or be tardy in acting or doing
b : to linger in expectation : wait
2: to abide or stay in or at a place
The greek word used is: xroniðzw (Chronizo) to linger, delay, tarry so the Bridgroom (Jesus Christ) will delay in coming until the Bride is fully prepared.
Looks like Christ made it really clear His return would be delayed but when He came it would be quickly and the Bride would go quickly to Him.

 

[DHK]

DHK,

I’m glad to see you are broadening your view of who the intended audience is for the book of Acts.

I see we have finally found common ground here on the Apostles seeing Christ ascend. Progress my friend.

Might we also have common ground on verse 9 After He had said this, He was taken up as they were watching, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

No, that is redundant. They know because they were eye-witnesses to the event. It was such an awesome event it left them still gazing into the skies. The angels come and ask them why are you still gazing into the skies, as if to say: Be comforted he will come again. They did see him go.

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. (Acts 1:9)
And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; (Acts 1:10)
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Acts 1:11)

Three times it is mentioned that they saw him go visibly and bodily into heaven. Now lets examine this from a couple of different viewpoints.
1. The word "heaven" is used in different ways:
a. It can refer to the atmosphere--what the disciples saw.
b. It can refer to the universe.
c. It can refer to God's abode.
--Those are the three ways in which "heaven" or "heavens" are used in the Bible.

I often fly. Commercial aircraft fly at either 10,000 feet or 30,000 km. A mile is 5,280 feet. From a plane one can see the clouds below. The clouds would probably be about a third to a mile up from the earth, depending on the nature of the cloud. That is plenty of time and space for the disciples to see Jesus bodily ascend into the cloud. Furthermore it says that "a cloud received him." This phrase is used distinctively to let us know that he did not just disappear, but was received--he was seen in other words.

They were left gazing into the sky. I don't find that unusual. You live in Virginia. I live in northern Canada and am often gazing into the sky at some of the most wonderful sights that the Lord could ever display to the wonderment of mankind. It is called the aurora borealis, or the Northern Lights. Last week they lit up the whole sky. Hues of red, blue, green, silver, streaked and flashed throughout the sky--a glorious manifestation of God's power. I too gazed up into the sky. What an awesome sight! It is something not seen in Virginia.
The disciples had just seen an awesome sight: the Lord Jesus Christ in his resurrected body ascend into heaven. They were still gazing into the heavens, when two angels appear. They were still wonder-struck.
The angels are there simply to reassure them that he will come back in the same physical way that they saw him go.

You don’t really want to argue that verse 9 says they saw him go into heaven do you?

Why not? That is what the Scripture says.

Might we also agree that verse 11 has the two angels telling the Apostles that he came into heaven and that is how they know where he went after he left their sight.

No, that is reassurance that what they saw was not just a dream. It was real. And he will come back in the same physical way that he just went. With that reassurance no one could say that this was a figment of their imagination.

Doesn’t that make a more believable story to pass on too your audience than saying someone left your sight, but then trying to tell them where he went even though you just admitted you can’t see them any more.

The presence of the angels along with the other witnesses makes it more believable.

Can’t we let common sense apply to reading the bible as to any other endeavor. In the long-run don’t you think that will win more converts to Christ than trying force a certain view point down their throat.

I am not the one trying to force any other interpretation here. I simply take it literally as it says.

Maybe it’s time to think about these things and whether or not you want to advocate a future return of Christ when he said he was coming back quickly.

Quickly means an imminent return. He said as a thief in the night when no one knows. Be prepared. It could be at any time.

Again a little common sense seems in order. How many people are you going to impress telling people Christ is coming back soon when the wait is already 2,000 years?

I could come to your house quickly, but that doesn't mean in the next five or ten minutes. I can also mean suddenly.

How many people are you going to impress telling them Christ is coming back in a physical body—when you can’t find a scripture reference that actually says that and all you can offer them is an “interpretation” to make your point instead of actual verses.

Because Christ says it three times in the last chapter of the book of Revelation, well after the destruction of the Temple. And John is still praying for his coming at that time. Also remember that "quickly" does have the meaning of suddenly, though it is not often used that way today, it certainly was 400 years ago in our KJV.

On that note I’ll leave you to mull things over a little.

Thanks, I already have.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Steve,

Greetings my old friend,

I don't think we've ever met.

Don’t waste your worry time on whether I know what amillennialism is—I’m versed in the standard definitions of that model. Now you of course are entitled to your own unique and whimsical definition which I might not be familiar with, but I digress. The main point here is the return of Christ. So do you think he has already come back or do you think that time is still in the future? If you put that event in the future then you good sir are a futurist. And, if so you don’t have to hide it many of your friends here at BB are futurists as well.

Since you patently don't understand what Amillennialism is, not what Futurism and Preterism are, I will try to explain.

A Futurist is someone who belives that the majority of NT prophecy is yet to be fulfilled. I don't think there is anyone who imagines that the prophecies of, say, Matt 24:2 or 26:34 have not yet occurred. Likewise a Preterist is one who believes that the majority of NT prophecy has alredy been fulfilled. Iconoclast can correct me, but I understand that he is still expecting a physical return of Christ. It is only the loony fringe of Hyper-preterists that supposes that there is nothing more to come.

An Amillennialist, or realized millennialist, believes that the majority of NT prophecy is being fulfilled during this present age. For example, if we take that seven seals of Rev 6 &7, the first seal represents the Lord Jesus Christ who is building His kingdom at this present time and sacking the borders of Satan's empire. The second seal represents war which has and is and will continue throughout the age (Matt 24:6-7). The third represents inequality, famine and scarcety of which the same is true. The fourth represents death by disease and various forms of violence. The fifth represents martyrdom. Is it your view that the full number of martyrs was attained by AD 70 (v11)? Have there been no more since then? Only the last two seals are yet to come. The sixth seal represnts the coming of the Lord Jesus; only those who have God's seal will escape His wrath. The seventh represents the final judgement. All heaven stands in silent awe.

I didn't write this as something for discussion, but merely for your edification. As a matter of fact, I very seldom get into discussions over eschatology with Pre-mils or Post-mils. As long as someone is looking forward to the coming of Christ, he's OK by me. H-P, however, I regard as a false teaching of the worst kind and if I were in charge of this forum I would not allow it to be discussed lest it deceive the faithful.

Steve

 

[Logos1]

You have two utterly clear texts. Deal with those first. You haven't begun to do so yet.

There is a very good reason why there are no specific references to a date for our Lord's return. 'But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the father. take heed and watch and pray, for you do not know when the time is' (Mark 13:33).

If our Lord had said to His disciples, "Well cheerio, chaps! I'll see you again in 3,000 years or so," there would have been no incentive for the to watch and pray. We are to believe that the Lord may return any day, and live in the light of that belief. That is what God's will was in AD 30; it is God's will for us today.

Dream on! :sleeping_2:

Steve

Greetings Steve,

Always a pleasure to hear back from you my old friend. I look forward to reading your unique perspective on biblical events every day.

I can see we are in agreement that Christ didn’t name a specific date as to his return; however, I should point out that he did give us the general time frame in very specific terms.

We see in ch 24 when the Apostles ask about the temple’s destruction and the end of the age and His coming linking all three events together that Jesus didn’t correct them and tell them they were wrong in their assumptions that these events happen at the same time.

Remember that whenever the Apostles misunderstand something that the Holy Spirit inspired bible always points out Jesus correcting them, but he didn’t correct their beliefs here—he confirms that all events happen at the same time by His answer and the fact that there was not need to correct them.

Now we know the destruction of the temple occurred in 70 AD. That would force the other two events to also happen in 70 AD. Jesus Further confirmed this by telling them that this generation would not pass before all these things took place.

He of course affirmed it in other ways also such as in Matt. 10:23 tell them they wouldn’t finish going through the cities of Israel before his return. Of course we know the Apostles aren’t going through the cities of Israel to day so that verse alone would rule out any future return of Christ based on true biblical standards.

Our Lord and Savior was still pretty specific in saying when he would return without giving away the exact hour.

Why would that be so hard to accept?

 

[Logos1]

I don't think we've ever met.

Since you patently don't understand what Amillennialism is, not what Futurism and Preterism are, I will try to explain.

A Futurist is someone who belives that the majority of NT prophecy is yet to be fulfilled. I don't think there is anyone who imagines that the prophecies of, say, Matt 24:2 or 26:34 have not yet occurred. Likewise a Preterist is one who believes that the majority of NT prophecy has alredy been fulfilled. Iconoclast can correct me, but I understand that he is still expecting a physical return of Christ. It is only the loony fringe of Hyper-preterists that supposes that there is nothing more to come.

An Amillennialist, or realized millennialist, believes that the majority of NT prophecy is being fulfilled during this present age. For example, if we take that seven seals of Rev 6 &7, the first seal represents the Lord Jesus Christ who is building His kingdom at this present time and sacking the borders of Satan's empire. The second seal represents war which has and is and will continue throughout the age (Matt 24:6-7). The third represents inequality, famine and scarcety of which the same is true. The fourth represents death by disease and various forms of violence. The fifth represents martyrdom. Is it your view that the full number of martyrs was attained by AD 70 (v11)? Have there been no more since then? Only the last two seals are yet to come. The sixth seal represnts the coming of the Lord Jesus; only those who have God's seal will escape His wrath. The seventh represents the final judgement. All heaven stands in silent awe.

I didn't write this as something for discussion, but merely for your edification. As a matter of fact, I very seldom get into discussions over eschatology with Pre-mils or Post-mils. As long as someone is looking forward to the coming of Christ, he's OK by me. H-P, however, I regard as a false teaching of the worst kind and if I were in charge of this forum I would not allow it to be discussed lest it deceive the faithful.

Steve

Greetings again steve—gee this is just like winning the daily double—we get two entertaining posts for the price of one from you today. Sweet of you my friend.

My dear friend and brother in Christ when I indicated you might have your own unique and whimsical definitions little did I know how quickly you would rush to verify that fact.

I don’t see any harm in you holding to any definition you like and more power to you for making it really entertaining. It was a joy to read your beliefs on the matter.

Of course as I’m pretty sure you know these aren’t the main stream definitions of futurist nor amils, but variety is the spice of life after all.

Back in the days when America was splitting off from the mother country Ben Franklin use to say we should be able to spell any word more than one way and he would no doubt have similar views on multiple definitions of eschatology as well.

The Holman Bible Dictionary (good old Southern Baptists like myself) has the typical definition of futurist—what will take place at the end of history just before the second coming of Christ and the establishment of his Kingdom. P 1387

The ESV study bible which is the best selling study bible gives us the typical definition of amillennialism which states amillennialists believe that biblical evidence indicates there will be no millennium. P 2460

And why don’t I throw in the definition of Preterism too for good measure as well—the method of eschatological study consistent with the Holy Spirit inspired teachings though out the Bible.

As for banning preterism—that is what Last Days wants to do as well—I told you that you two guys were on the same page and you ought to start a blog together. Between his convoluted date setting and your unique interpretations you couldn’t help but being a big hit. I’d read everything you two published. You could probably write international best sellers. I think you ought to give this idea some serious thought.

 

[Logos1]

Rev,

Greetings old friend,

You have an excellent 2 post there for illustrative purposes to show everything wrong with good ol’ premil dispensational futurism.

You have posted all these verses and take little meaning from each of them so you can roll it all up in the desired fashion and get dispensationalism out of it.

Would be cruel of me to point out that in all these verses no where does it actually say any thing about a physical return of Christ or move it beyond Jesus’ generation which of course puts Christ return in 70 AD.

Tarry how long my friend, how long indeed? Obviously till 70 AD which was consistent with the first generation return.