Preterism is the only honest way to understand bible prophecy

My Apologies Iconoclast

Iconoclast,

Let me begin tonight by saying I have no problem apologizing anytime I think it is in order and would always want to be quick to do so therefore let me offer you my apologizes since I feel I have been too hard on you. I agree we have plenty in common in our views. I see you as a partial preterist which I was briefly one myself before feeling compelled and led by the Holy Spirit into the full preterist camp.

We can certainly agree to disagree on some points in a spirit of Christian brotherhood.

Some disagreement helps keep topics interesting.

Again my apologies in a spirit of Christian fellowship.

Now I have to be about the Lord’s work and help straighten out these poor futurists and save them from the error of their ways. I use to be where they are as a poor, mislead premil dispy myself until smarter preterists than me pointed out the error of my ways and I saw the light and I thank God for it.

Good evening to you sir.

 

I don’t fall sucker to claims which can’t be backed up by scripture references. You my good futurist have proven my point by your failing to find even one single verse that says Christ will return in bodily form—of course there is no such verse for you to find. Nor one that says he will return a long time in the future. Your inclination to stick to your preconceived notion of what is in the bible is saddening, but fortunately it is your problem and not mine.

I use to be a bigger premil than anybody in here, but when my misconceptions were confronted by scriptural proof and full preterist logic I didn’t hide cover my ears and try to shout my position over the voice of truth. I can admit when I on the wrong side of scripture and adjust my position to line up with scripture.

The difference between you and me is that you twist scripture to line up with your preconceived notions.

 

LOL, do you expect me to sit here all day just to read and answer your posts. Some of have real jobs.

Practice a little patience my brother and good things will come to you.



:love2:

 

Greetings Steve,

Glad you could join us from across the pond.

We need some new futurists to bring in some original thought here and I hope you will provide some new, creative, different, and scripture based rebuttals for the futurist position. It badly needs it.

I keep looking for a deathknell to full preterism, but all I have seen so far is twisting of scripture to suit a desired view point of futurism.

Maybe you could enlighten me as to why there is not one single verse in the whole of the scriptures that says Christ will return in bodily form and yet futurists insist on it. If you could find a verse would you please post it since no one else can find such a verse. If not maybe you should ask the Holy Spirit to guide you in aligning your view point to scripture. That is what I did and it doesn’t hurt too much. And, you would be surprised how much better the bible reads when viewed from the preterist perspective.

I’ll admit I’m a little disappointed that you take Acts 1:11 out of context and try to make like it stands alone without context to verse 9 where the Apostles admit Christ disappears into a cloud and they can’t see him. If he were to come back in this manner he would be invisible. However, an honest reading of this verse leads us to the conclusion that it is addressing only the ascension and not his return. The coming in as witnessed by the two angels is His coming into heaven not back to earth.

I trust you won’t take offense when I point out the error of your post when you claim that Christ entered heaven in the form of flesh and blood. No verse any where states this it is simply another twisting of the scripture to suit your view point. In fact scripture refutes you quite nicely.
1 Corinthians 15:50 points out that flesh and blood don’t inherit the kingdom of heaven.

I suppose I shouldn’t be too hard on you for misunderstanding Rev. 1:7. The every eye shall see him is not meant as the physical eye, but horao is a reference to seeing with the mind or comprehending. That is to say when he comes in judgment against Jerusalem in 70 AD everyone will understand the Roman army is the manifestation of God’s will.

As for Job 19 that is beyond desperate it is just a laughable stretch which proves how hollow futurism really is—maybe you would like to cite exactly where it says one word about Christ or anybody else’s return to anywhere. There is a reference to last in there, but it is not saying anything about anybody coming back to anywhere.

In difference to you Steve I won’t quote how many posts we have had so far without anyone finding a single verse of scripture that says Christ is coming back in bodily form or a long time in the future.

As for how much full preterism is elevated (as in standing tall) by no one finding any scripture references to support a long in the future return of Christ or a physical return—I think I can trust that many readers will see the obvious truth without me having to point it out just as I myself did and realized I had to become a full preterist to make the bible flow smooth and consistent and resolve the inherit contradictions of futurism.

Best wishes Steve.

 

Cutting to the chase you seem to want an answer to the highlighted portion of your post.

This contains a literary scheme known as an ellipsis which shortens repetitive passages. Here it takes the phrase “into heaven” out of “so shall come in like manner”

Read this verse again and like this:

11 and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven,will come in to heaven the same way as you saw him go into heaven."

Notice how perfect the fit is and how even the verse flows. First century hearers of the passage would know how to deal with the verse, but today we are confused by it.

Reason through it with a little common sense.

The book of Acts as a whole and this verse specifically are trying to convince their audience that Christ is the real Messiah, the true Son of God. Many were claiming to be the messiah at this time and it was hard to know who to believe.

The real son of God would go to heaven when he left earth, but the Apostles didn’t see where he went since they say he disappeared from their view. How can they claim he went to heaven if they didn’t see where he went. The two angels resolve the problem. Notice there are two witnesses just like the Old Testament calsl for not just one to prove a point. They verify that he went into heaven like only the Son of God would do thus proving Christ was the real Messiah.

This verse deals only with his ascension not his return. That is dealt with other places.

Again a little common sense—how hard would it be to make this point to an audience that is not familiar with Christ to begin with to talk about this ascension then his return then his accession all in one sentence. All that switching back and fourth would confuse the audience. They are making it simple for the first century audience to grasp the point. Unfortunately it confuses present day audiences.

Dwell on it DHK--it might begin to make sense to you if you aren’t afraid of it and where it might lead you.

 

Well not to put too fine a point on it, but I did ask you first so if you answer my question I will gladly answer yours.

 

Two Thousand years and counting

Well another day and it’s getting harder to keep track of all the futurists posts which fail to back up there assertions that Christ will return in bodily form or come back a long time into the future with any actual scripture references. A less patient man might grow frustrated, but I’ve learned that futurism is more wishful thinking and artful scripture twisting than hardnosed bible study.

Again I would be remiss if I didn’t point out the obvious that scripture is full of references the preterist can stand on about Christ coming back quickly, in the first century generation, etc, etc and not a single verse about a delayed long in the future return.

I don’t blame the futurists for being angered that the bible doesn’t support their wishful thinking.

One day futurism will be assigned to the dust bin of bible study where it truly belongs.

Each passing day futurism looks more hollow and preterism gains more and more credibility (some wold say it stands taller everyday, but being mindful of how some futurists are sensitive in dealing with reality I won’t rub it in).

I’m just going to chalk up one more day of victory for preterism and one more day of defeat for futurism (that’s two thousand years worth of days of defeat, but what are a few thousand years between friends).

 

Sounds like a book with possibilities that I might like to read when time permits. I don’t have to agree with everything in it to read it and get something out of it. I like to expose myself to different view points and challenge my own thinking.

The Parousia by Russell was an early preterist influence on me. So was the Beast of Revelation by Gentry.

All of Don Preston’s books have been worth reading. He has been the single biggest influence
Who is this Babylon
Like Father like Son
70 Weeks are determined for
We Shall meet him in the Air
I especially liked The elements shall melt with Fervent Heat

Last Days Maddness Obession of the Modern Day church is a good place for those thinking about Preterism to pick up some nice points.

Preston has many good articles posted online.

Preterism is gaining such a following now that there are many good articles published online. Just in the last few years I’ve seen it grow exponentially

Before reading any of these having read How to Read the Bible by Fee and Stuart (nothing really to do with preterism) does an excellent job of helping laymen tie together the bible and begin to grasp it has coherent books that have strands running through them linking one to another. It really helps see the later chapters of Deuteronomy spread their tentacles through the remainder of the bible. Then when you are exposed to Preterism it helps to grasp it quicker and more completely.

Among other’s Koester’s Symbolism in the Fourth Gospel knits together your thinking well beyond just the book of John.

 

You Thomas not agreeing with my position, LOL. Holy presuppositions batman who woulda thunk it.

 

I think you got started off so well rev and ended up so badly here. Don’t you see he prepared a place for us and came back in 70AD to bring us into it when the old covenant ended. There ain’t no in between covenant. We had no place to go except into the New Covenant. At that point we now get to go to heaven when we die. If he didn’t come for us then that would mean we still don’t go to heaven when we die—every preacher who tells a grieving family their love one has gone to be with the Lord is espousing a hyper preterist position! Sweet.

If you don’t see a very specific time table (specific as in the first generation not the exact day on a calendar) of soon as in the first generation as told by Christ himself and affirmed by the apostles then your argument is not with me, but with Christ Himself and the Apostles. Sorry rev that is just way the bible reads whether your preconceived notions let you accept it or not.