Preterism is the only honest way to understand bible prophecy

[Iconoclast]

We have reached the part of this thread where preterist Iconoclast and preterist Logos1 go head to head on in pitched battle in a dispute on the issue of Jesus actually having returned in AD 70. Diversity within the unity or to the victor goes the spoils?

Kindly pass me the popcorn.

Thomas,

Logos and I have more in common than we would dis-agree on.
He would believe that I perhaps have not gone far enough in my studies.
I believe he has come to much truth..but is going outside the lines so to speak...so I am offering where I think he has exceeded what the verses teach.

I am by no means an escatlogical expert...I am constantly learning..and I believe I can learn from Logos...and even if I am placed in a position of having to oppose some of His ideas... I still will give him the respect and courtesy of hearing him out...questioning and probing his thoughts.
It is also my desire that all who participate would attempt to do the same....
even you Thomas.

Let me say this to you and others who only hold or try to hold to the premill idea.....
There are too many verses that you cannot deal with honestly because you ignore the direction that they point to. Why not open your understanding to see what others have seen,before you just react without any basis ...then of course make your claim that you are being biblical.

 

[thomas15]

Thomas,


This is not a problem at all.It suggests you have not read many of those you easily seem to set aside.

I'm well aware of 1 Cor 15

You however are not answering my question. The reason is because you cannot. 1 cor 15 does not help the cause of those who say we are in the kingdom now. This passage tells us about the resurrection body but it doesn't explain why we would need one if we are already in the kingdom.

 

[Iconoclast]

I'm well aware of 1 Cor 15

You however are not answering my question. The reason is because you cannot. 1 cor 15 does not help the cause of those who say we are in the kingdom now. This passage tells us about the resurrection body but it doesn't explain why we would need one if we are already in the kingdom.

Thomas

You however are not answering my question. The reason is because you cannot.

I have given a short answer to your question.You evidently cannot process it.
2 cor 4:16-5:10.....Paul explains our outward man perishes....
there is not a time when a believer is not in the Kingdom....no matter if in this body or the new one....

2 Corinthians 5

1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7(For we walk by faith, not by sight

8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

 

[Logos1]

My Apologies Iconoclast

Iconoclast,

Let me begin tonight by saying I have no problem apologizing anytime I think it is in order and would always want to be quick to do so therefore let me offer you my apologizes since I feel I have been too hard on you. I agree we have plenty in common in our views. I see you as a partial preterist which I was briefly one myself before feeling compelled and led by the Holy Spirit into the full preterist camp.

We can certainly agree to disagree on some points in a spirit of Christian brotherhood.

Some disagreement helps keep topics interesting.

Again my apologies in a spirit of Christian fellowship.

Now I have to be about the Lord’s work and help straighten out these poor futurists and save them from the error of their ways. I use to be where they are as a poor, mislead premil dispy myself until smarter preterists than me pointed out the error of my ways and I saw the light and I thank God for it.

Good evening to you sir.

 

[DHK]

It is quite apparent that if you were given the Scripture (and you have), that you would simply dismiss it.
As someone said to an atheist: "If I could give you absolute proof beyond any degree of doubt that Jesus Christ rose from the dead demonstrating that He was God, would you accept my proof?
His answer would still be no.
As many Scriptures as I give, your answer would still be "no."

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Acts 1:9-11)

An unanswered post. I doubt it ever will be, because Acts 1:9-11 defeats preterism at its roots.

 

[Logos1]

Speaking for myself and my guess is that others here would agree that pointing out Biblical proof for a position one time is enough to make the point. While you never seem to get tired of repeating the same thing over and over, I take it as a sign that you don't either listen or simply don't believe the plain meaning of the words of Scripture, which is of course your personal right.

I don’t fall sucker to claims which can’t be backed up by scripture references. You my good futurist have proven my point by your failing to find even one single verse that says Christ will return in bodily form—of course there is no such verse for you to find. Nor one that says he will return a long time in the future. Your inclination to stick to your preconceived notion of what is in the bible is saddening, but fortunately it is your problem and not mine.

I use to be a bigger premil than anybody in here, but when my misconceptions were confronted by scriptural proof and full preterist logic I didn’t hide cover my ears and try to shout my position over the voice of truth. I can admit when I on the wrong side of scripture and adjust my position to line up with scripture.

The difference between you and me is that you twist scripture to line up with your preconceived notions.

 

[Logos1]

An unanswered post. I doubt it ever will be, because Acts 1:9-11 defeats preterism at its roots.

LOL, do you expect me to sit here all day just to read and answer your posts. Some of have real jobs.

Practice a little patience my brother and good things will come to you.



:love2:

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast,

Let me begin tonight by saying I have no problem apologizing anytime I think it is in order and would always want to be quick to do so therefore let me offer you my apologizes since I feel I have been too hard on you. I agree we have plenty in common in our views. I see you as a partial preterist which I was briefly one myself before feeling compelled and led by the Holy Spirit into the full preterist camp.

We can certainly agree to disagree on some points in a spirit of Christian brotherhood.

Some disagreement helps keep topics interesting.

Again my apologies in a spirit of Christian fellowship.

Now I have to be about the Lord’s work and help straighten out these poor futurists and save them from the error of their ways. I use to be where they are as a poor, mislead premil dispy myself until smarter preterists than me pointed out the error of my ways and I saw the light and I thank God for it.

Good evening to you sir.

Logos,
No Problem....I think that sometimes in a message board situation...we can forget that we should be here to come to truth but because we get defensive about our position sometimes we get a bit edgy.
I can take it logos....if i put it out sometime...I have to expect some return fire!
I remember as many do learning the premill/dispy system in detail....thinking that was the whole story.
It was shocking to see that what at first seemed so solid....was a house of cards.
If someone believes in the person and work of the Lord....and does not deny the eternal state....we should be careful about how we interact with them...no matter which calendar they are using at the time.

A big question they need answered is...if most of MT. and rev. is fulfilled...what is left?

Logos.....for the majority of christians who have lived....individual eschatology has proven to be their main concern,ie, the time their spirit leaves their body.

I think it is better to get each person to give a scriptural thought or two on what they hold..and allow others to question it....

Whitlaws Gospel millenium in obedience to scripture was helpful to get me thinking on this...what were some teachings that have led you to your current position?

 

[Logos1]

Logos 1, you keep saying this, as if to convince yourself that it's true. But repeating it over and over again doesn't help your case, because it simply isn't so.

As has been pointed out by several others, Acts 1:9-11 is the absolute deathknell to the Hyper-preterist system. It simply blows it out of the water.

'This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.'

It's the same Jesus, the flesh and blood One (Luke 24:39) who went into heaven; it's the same One who will return. He left 'as they watched' (Acts 1:9); people will watch Him return. He was received out of their sight by a cloud; the clouds will part to reveal Him (Rev 1:7).

The Job 19 text is also a clincher. Either of them absolutely destroy your case. So please stop wittering on about H-P standing tall. Actually, it's lying dead on the carpet.

Steve

Greetings Steve,

Glad you could join us from across the pond.

We need some new futurists to bring in some original thought here and I hope you will provide some new, creative, different, and scripture based rebuttals for the futurist position. It badly needs it.

I keep looking for a deathknell to full preterism, but all I have seen so far is twisting of scripture to suit a desired view point of futurism.

Maybe you could enlighten me as to why there is not one single verse in the whole of the scriptures that says Christ will return in bodily form and yet futurists insist on it. If you could find a verse would you please post it since no one else can find such a verse. If not maybe you should ask the Holy Spirit to guide you in aligning your view point to scripture. That is what I did and it doesn’t hurt too much. And, you would be surprised how much better the bible reads when viewed from the preterist perspective.

I’ll admit I’m a little disappointed that you take Acts 1:11 out of context and try to make like it stands alone without context to verse 9 where the Apostles admit Christ disappears into a cloud and they can’t see him. If he were to come back in this manner he would be invisible. However, an honest reading of this verse leads us to the conclusion that it is addressing only the ascension and not his return. The coming in as witnessed by the two angels is His coming into heaven not back to earth.

I trust you won’t take offense when I point out the error of your post when you claim that Christ entered heaven in the form of flesh and blood. No verse any where states this it is simply another twisting of the scripture to suit your view point. In fact scripture refutes you quite nicely.
1 Corinthians 15:50 points out that flesh and blood don’t inherit the kingdom of heaven.

I suppose I shouldn’t be too hard on you for misunderstanding Rev. 1:7. The every eye shall see him is not meant as the physical eye, but horao is a reference to seeing with the mind or comprehending. That is to say when he comes in judgment against Jerusalem in 70 AD everyone will understand the Roman army is the manifestation of God’s will.

As for Job 19 that is beyond desperate it is just a laughable stretch which proves how hollow futurism really is—maybe you would like to cite exactly where it says one word about Christ or anybody else’s return to anywhere. There is a reference to last in there, but it is not saying anything about anybody coming back to anywhere.

In difference to you Steve I won’t quote how many posts we have had so far without anyone finding a single verse of scripture that says Christ is coming back in bodily form or a long time in the future.

As for how much full preterism is elevated (as in standing tall) by no one finding any scripture references to support a long in the future return of Christ or a physical return—I think I can trust that many readers will see the obvious truth without me having to point it out just as I myself did and realized I had to become a full preterist to make the bible flow smooth and consistent and resolve the inherit contradictions of futurism.

Best wishes Steve.

 

[Logos1]

It is quite apparent that if you were given the Scripture (and you have), that you would simply dismiss it.
As someone said to an atheist: "If I could give you absolute proof beyond any degree of doubt that Jesus Christ rose from the dead demonstrating that He was God, would you accept my proof?
His answer would still be no.
As many Scriptures as I give, your answer would still be "no."

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Acts 1:9-11)

An unanswered post. I doubt it ever will be, because Acts 1:9-11 defeats preterism at its roots.

Cutting to the chase you seem to want an answer to the highlighted portion of your post.

This contains a literary scheme known as an ellipsis which shortens repetitive passages. Here it takes the phrase “into heaven” out of “so shall come in like manner”

Read this verse again and like this:

11 and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven,will come in to heaven the same way as you saw him go into heaven."

Notice how perfect the fit is and how even the verse flows. First century hearers of the passage would know how to deal with the verse, but today we are confused by it.

Reason through it with a little common sense.

The book of Acts as a whole and this verse specifically are trying to convince their audience that Christ is the real Messiah, the true Son of God. Many were claiming to be the messiah at this time and it was hard to know who to believe.

The real son of God would go to heaven when he left earth, but the Apostles didn’t see where he went since they say he disappeared from their view. How can they claim he went to heaven if they didn’t see where he went. The two angels resolve the problem. Notice there are two witnesses just like the Old Testament calsl for not just one to prove a point. They verify that he went into heaven like only the Son of God would do thus proving Christ was the real Messiah.

This verse deals only with his ascension not his return. That is dealt with other places.

Again a little common sense—how hard would it be to make this point to an audience that is not familiar with Christ to begin with to talk about this ascension then his return then his accession all in one sentence. All that switching back and fourth would confuse the audience. They are making it simple for the first century audience to grasp the point. Unfortunately it confuses present day audiences.

Dwell on it DHK--it might begin to make sense to you if you aren’t afraid of it and where it might lead you.

 

[Logos1]

I will answer you if you answer this!

was jesus raised up as a physical resurrected body, same one he had, but glorofied?

Will there be a physical resurrection from/of the dead in Christ or not?

Well not to put too fine a point on it, but I did ask you first so if you answer my question I will gladly answer yours.

 

[Logos1]

Two Thousand years and counting

Well another day and it’s getting harder to keep track of all the futurists posts which fail to back up there assertions that Christ will return in bodily form or come back a long time into the future with any actual scripture references. A less patient man might grow frustrated, but I’ve learned that futurism is more wishful thinking and artful scripture twisting than hardnosed bible study.

Again I would be remiss if I didn’t point out the obvious that scripture is full of references the preterist can stand on about Christ coming back quickly, in the first century generation, etc, etc and not a single verse about a delayed long in the future return.

I don’t blame the futurists for being angered that the bible doesn’t support their wishful thinking.

One day futurism will be assigned to the dust bin of bible study where it truly belongs.

Each passing day futurism looks more hollow and preterism gains more and more credibility (some wold say it stands taller everyday, but being mindful of how some futurists are sensitive in dealing with reality I won’t rub it in).

I’m just going to chalk up one more day of victory for preterism and one more day of defeat for futurism (that’s two thousand years worth of days of defeat, but what are a few thousand years between friends).

 

[thomas15]

I use to be a bigger premil than anybody in here, but when my misconceptions were confronted by scriptural proof and full preterist logic I didn’t hide cover my ears and try to shout my position over the voice of truth. I can admit when I on the wrong side of scripture and adjust my position to line up with scripture.

The difference between you and me is that you twist scripture to line up with your preconceived notions.

And I was once a big time covenant A-mil. Does that impress you? I hope not because a personal experience counts little, it's what the Word of God teaches that really matters. And this is where your position begins to hit rough seas. Cut and Paste a Bible verse is not the same as careful exegesis of the text in context. Show me the careful exegesis and then you will start to make some hay. Show some kind of respect to historical fact and then your theology will begin to pick up steam.

In the meantime, it is hard to escape the conclusion that your accusations towards us, that we bring our presuppositions front and center before we consider meaning is well, you know, something you are quite comfortable with yourself.

 

[revmwc]

Well another day and it’s getting harder to keep track of all the futurists posts which fail to back up there assertions that Christ will return in bodily form or come back a long time into the future with any actual scripture references. A less patient man might grow frustrated, but I’ve learned that futurism is more wishful thinking and artful scripture twisting than hardnosed bible study.

Again I would be remiss if I didn’t point out the obvious that scripture is full of references the preterist can stand on about Christ coming back quickly, in the first century generation, etc, etc and not a single verse about a delayed long in the future return.

I don’t blame the futurists for being angered that the bible doesn’t support their wishful thinking.

One day futurism will be assigned to the dust bin of bible study where it truly belongs.

Each passing day futurism looks more hollow and preterism gains more and more credibility (some wold say it stands taller everyday, but being mindful of how some futurists are sensitive in dealing with reality I won’t rub it in).

I’m just going to chalk up one more day of victory for preterism and one more day of defeat for futurism (that’s two thousand years worth of days of defeat, but what are a few thousand years between friends).

Another day and closer to Christ return as He promised. You know where He said I go to prepare a place for you and if I go and prepare a place for I will come again. To which He added "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you". He never returned physically for them but He will and He will raise them from the dead as He said would. I see He put no timetable on it. God doesn't work on my time table though, if He did He would answer our prayers in the time we want. Christ return will be quick and soon for us and match His time table. After all for God a day is like 1000 years and a thousand yeards like one day that is really soon for God.

 

[DHK]

Cutting to the chase you seem to want an answer to the highlighted portion of your post.

This contains a literary scheme known as an ellipsis which shortens repetitive passages. Here it takes the phrase “into heaven” out of “so shall come in like manner”

Read this verse again and like this:

11 and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven,will come in to heaven the same way as you saw him go into heaven."

This indicates their astonishment. It also indicates that they were eye-witnesses to his bodily ascension. They did see him go up and ascend up and then disappear past the clouds. He will come again in like manner. The like manner refers to the coming in bodily form. Every eye shall see him.

Notice how perfect the fit is and how even the verse flows. First century hearers of the passage would know how to deal with the verse, but today we are confused by it.

I think the passage is quite clear. There is no confusion on my part.

Reason through it with a little common sense.

The book of Acts as a whole and this verse specifically are trying to convince their audience that Christ is the real Messiah, the true Son of God. Many were claiming to be the messiah at this time and it was hard to know who to believe.

The resurrection had already taken place. The disciples were already convinced in their mind. Look what happened in chapter two. Do you think these men would die for an imposter?

The real son of God would go to heaven when he left earth, but the Apostles didn’t see where he went since they say he disappeared from their view. How can they claim he went to heaven if they didn’t see where he went.

Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Acts 1:11)
--The record indicates that they did see him go. They saw him go into heaven. Perhaps it wasn't the abode of God, but it was the atmospheric heavens.

The two angels resolve the problem. Notice there are two witnesses just like the Old Testament calsl for not just one to prove a point. They verify that he went into heaven like only the Son of God would do thus proving Christ was the real Messiah.

Here is what the saw:

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. (Acts 1:9)
--The two angels are only comforting them, reassuring them that he will come again, as he went--physically.

This verse deals only with his ascension not his return. That is dealt with other places.

It deals with both.

Again a little common sense—how hard would it be to make this point to an audience that is not familiar with Christ to begin with to talk about this ascension then his return then his accession all in one sentence. All that switching back and fourth would confuse the audience. They are making it simple for the first century audience to grasp the point. Unfortunately it confuses present day audiences.

The audience was his disciples--very familiar with his promises, and familiar with the fact that he was going to ascend into heaven and send the Holy Spirit in his stead. They had been told to wait for him in Jerusalem. They had been told that the Holy Spirit would come. They were prepared.

Dwell on it DHK--it might begin to make sense to you if you aren’t afraid of it and where it might lead you.

It makes a lot of sense to me because I take it literally for what it says.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Greetings Steve,

Glad you could join us from across the pond.

We need some new futurists to bring in some original thought here and I hope you will provide some new, creative, different, and scripture based rebuttals for the futurist position. It badly needs it.

I am not a Futurist. I am Amil or Realised Millennial.

Maybe you could enlighten me as to why there is not one single verse in the whole of the scriptures that says Christ will return in bodily form and yet futurists insist on it. If you could find a verse would you please post it since no one else can find such a verse. If not maybe you should ask the Holy Spirit to guide you in aligning your view point to scripture. That is what I did and it doesn’t hurt too much. And, you would be surprised how much better the bible reads when viewed from the preterist perspective.

The Bible makes no sense at all when viewed from a Hyper-Preterist perspective. Huge portions of it have no reference to anybody born during the last 1950 years. For example 2Peter 3:14. If I am not looking to br found by Christ when He returns, I have no reason to be peaceful, without spot or blameless.

I’ll admit I’m a little disappointed that you take Acts 1:11 out of context and try to make like it stands alone without context to verse 9 where the Apostles admit Christ disappears into a cloud and they can’t see him. If he were to come back in this manner he would be invisible. However, an honest reading of this verse leads us to the conclusion that it is addressing only the ascension and not his return. The coming in as witnessed by the two angels is His coming into heaven not back to earth.

First of all I did specifically address verse 9. Secondly you are reading these verses in a crazy way. Luke 24:51 tells us that He was 'carried up into heaven.' Acts 1:9 tells us that this happened 'while they [the apostles] beheld.' They watched Him ascend until a cloud 'received Him out of their sight.' He will return the same way as He left (v11). He left in bodily form; He will return in bodily form. He was seen as He left; He will be seen as He returns. Clouds eventually closed around Him to obscure His departure; clouds will part to reveal His return.

That is all. Your theories are shot to pieces.

I trust you won’t take offense when I point out the error of your post when you claim that Christ entered heaven in the form of flesh and blood. No verse any where states this it is simply another twisting of the scripture to suit your view point. In fact scripture refutes you quite nicely.
1 Corinthians 15:50 points out that flesh and blood don’t inherit the kingdom of heaven.

Whether He entered heaven as flesh and blood these verses do not say (though Daniel 8:13 seems strongly to suggest it). What the verses say is that He left in a flesh and blood body, albeit a resurrection body, and that He will return just as He left. Your interpretation of 1Cor 15:50 cannot be correct. Christ is the first-fruits from the dead and our forerunner into heaven. He was certainly rose from the dead with a flesh and blood body (Luke 24:39) and left the earth with one. What 1Cor 15:50 is saying is that we cannot enter heaven with the sinful, decaying bodies which we have now. We shall bear the image of the heavenly man (v49). We shall have new resurrection bodies.

I suppose I shouldn’t be too hard on you for misunderstanding Rev. 1:7. The every eye shall see him is not meant as the physical eye, but horao is a reference to seeing with the mind or comprehending. That is to say when he comes in judgment against Jerusalem in 70 AD everyone will understand the Roman army is the manifestation of God’s will.

Do you actually know any NT Greek? I thought not. Look up all the instances of horao (there are 86 in the KJV where it is translated 'see')and you will see that it means to see with the eyes as often as it means to discern or take heed. Try, for example, John 9:37 and Acts 20:25.

As for Job 19 that is beyond desperate it is just a laughable stretch which proves how hollow futurism really is—maybe you would like to cite exactly where it says one word about Christ or anybody else’s return to anywhere. There is a reference to last in there, but it is not saying anything about anybody coming back to anywhere.

It says that Job will see his Redeemer stand upon the earth on the last day. Do you suppose that happened in AD 70?

In difference to you Steve I won’t quote how many posts we have had so far without anyone finding a single verse of scripture that says Christ is coming back in bodily form or a long time in the future.

You are joking! These verses have been quoted to you over and over again. They are an utter refutation of Hyper-preterism, and I think you are about the only one who hasn't got the message. As for the long period of time, you need only look at Matt 24:5, Luke 12:45 etc. Again I ask, do these verses have nothing to say to us? if the master of the house returned 1950 years ago and isn't coming again, why can we not beat the servants and get drunk?

The Lord Jesus gave us no time for His return (Matt 24:36 etc.). It is up to us to be ready for Him.

Steve

 

[Robert Snow]

Cutting to the chase you seem to want an answer to the highlighted portion of your post.

This contains a literary scheme known as an ellipsis which shortens repetitive passages. Here it takes the phrase “into heaven” out of “so shall come in like manner”

Read this verse again and like this:

11 and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven,will come in to heaven the same way as you saw him go into heaven."

Notice how perfect the fit is and how even the verse flows. First century hearers of the passage would know how to deal with the verse, but today we are confused by it.

Reason through it with a little common sense.

The book of Acts as a whole and this verse specifically are trying to convince their audience that Christ is the real Messiah, the true Son of God. Many were claiming to be the messiah at this time and it was hard to know who to believe.

The real son of God would go to heaven when he left earth, but the Apostles didn’t see where he went since they say he disappeared from their view. How can they claim he went to heaven if they didn’t see where he went. The two angels resolve the problem. Notice there are two witnesses just like the Old Testament calsl for not just one to prove a point. They verify that he went into heaven like only the Son of God would do thus proving Christ was the real Messiah.

This verse deals only with his ascension not his return. That is dealt with other places.

Again a little common sense—how hard would it be to make this point to an audience that is not familiar with Christ to begin with to talk about this ascension then his return then his accession all in one sentence. All that switching back and fourth would confuse the audience. They are making it simple for the first century audience to grasp the point. Unfortunately it confuses present day audiences.

Dwell on it DHK--it might begin to make sense to you if you aren’t afraid of it and where it might lead you.

Wow! When it comes to twisting scripture, even the Jehovah's Witnesses would be proud!

 

[Logos1]

Whitlaws Gospel millenium in obedience to scripture was helpful to get me thinking on this...what were some teachings that have led you to your current position?

Sounds like a book with possibilities that I might like to read when time permits. I don’t have to agree with everything in it to read it and get something out of it. I like to expose myself to different view points and challenge my own thinking.

The Parousia by Russell was an early preterist influence on me. So was the Beast of Revelation by Gentry.

All of Don Preston’s books have been worth reading. He has been the single biggest influence
Who is this Babylon
Like Father like Son
70 Weeks are determined for
We Shall meet him in the Air
I especially liked The elements shall melt with Fervent Heat

Last Days Maddness Obession of the Modern Day church is a good place for those thinking about Preterism to pick up some nice points.

Preston has many good articles posted online.

Preterism is gaining such a following now that there are many good articles published online. Just in the last few years I’ve seen it grow exponentially

Before reading any of these having read How to Read the Bible by Fee and Stuart (nothing really to do with preterism) does an excellent job of helping laymen tie together the bible and begin to grasp it has coherent books that have strands running through them linking one to another. It really helps see the later chapters of Deuteronomy spread their tentacles through the remainder of the bible. Then when you are exposed to Preterism it helps to grasp it quicker and more completely.

Among other’s Koester’s Symbolism in the Fourth Gospel knits together your thinking well beyond just the book of John.

 

[Logos1]

And I was once a big time covenant A-mil. Does that impress you? I hope not because a personal experience counts little, it's what the Word of God teaches that really matters. And this is where your position begins to hit rough seas. Cut and Paste a Bible verse is not the same as careful exegesis of the text in context. Show me the careful exegesis and then you will start to make some hay. Show some kind of respect to historical fact and then your theology will begin to pick up steam.

In the meantime, it is hard to escape the conclusion that your accusations towards us, that we bring our presuppositions front and center before we consider meaning is well, you know, something you are quite comfortable with yourself.

You Thomas not agreeing with my position, LOL. Holy presuppositions batman who woulda thunk it.

 

[Logos1]

Another day and closer to Christ return as He promised. You know where He said I go to prepare a place for you and if I go and prepare a place for I will come again. To which He added "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you". He never returned physically for them but He will and He will raise them from the dead as He said would. I see He put no timetable on it. God doesn't work on my time table though, if He did He would answer our prayers in the time we want. Christ return will be quick and soon for us and match His time table. After all for God a day is like 1000 years and a thousand yeards like one day that is really soon for God.

I think you got started off so well rev and ended up so badly here. Don’t you see he prepared a place for us and came back in 70AD to bring us into it when the old covenant ended. There ain’t no in between covenant. We had no place to go except into the New Covenant. At that point we now get to go to heaven when we die. If he didn’t come for us then that would mean we still don’t go to heaven when we die—every preacher who tells a grieving family their love one has gone to be with the Lord is espousing a hyper preterist position! Sweet.

If you don’t see a very specific time table (specific as in the first generation not the exact day on a calendar) of soon as in the first generation as told by Christ himself and affirmed by the apostles then your argument is not with me, but with Christ Himself and the Apostles. Sorry rev that is just way the bible reads whether your preconceived notions let you accept it or not.