How do you young earthers know

[DHK]

Death is the seperation of the spirit from the body. Besides Genesis doesn't say that Adam would die a "spritual death" ... it just said he would die, which was the opposite state they where in before the fall - a state that took him 930 years to get to - not one 24 hour day. Ooops...

WM

There are many kinds of death in the Bible.
You quoted one type of death: Physical death--separation of the spirit from the body.
1. Spiritual death is separation of the spirit from God. See Eph.2:1--You hath he made alive who were once dead in trespasses and sin.
2. Eternal death: Eternal death is in opposition to eternal life. It is separation from God for all eternity.
3. The Second Death--The final sentence of God.

There are more than these mentioned in the Bible. Death is always separation. Adam died spiritually the day that he sinned. He died physically 930 years later.

 

[WestminsterMan]

I thought you understood basic theological concepts? Guess I was wrong? Let me stimulate your thinking a bit. Paul says to the Ephesians that they were "dead" in tresspasses and sins but God quickened, made them alive. Were they "dead" physically and God quickened them? What was "dead" that had to be quickened? They were obviously PHYSICALLY alive and so they were not made alive PHYSICALLY!

Now, take this back to Adam. He obviously did not die PHYSICALLY for hundreds of years after the fall. However, did Adam need to be quickened like the Epheisans? If so, what aspect of Adam was dead that needed to be quickened other than any PHYSICAL aspect? What aspect of the Ephesians needed quickening other than their PHYSICAL aspect???

DHK spelled it out for you but use your mind. The same answer you give for the Ephesians is the same answer for Adam. The Ephesians were born "dead" in tresspasses and sins but Adam was not created "dead" in tresspasses and sins was he???? So when did it occur? When did he die and need to be quickened?

Is it really a matter of ignoring the evidence or merely one interpretation of the evidence?

Hey - you're the one who needs to take Genesis literally - not me. So, it says that Adam would die the same day that he ate of the tree. It doesn't say anything about spiritual death, light bearers, or any other such garbage. If you're going to hold that Genesis literally means six-24 hour days because it uses that phrase "six days" in the creation story, then you must be consistent and take Adams death to mean a physical death that took place in one 24 hour day - because that's literally what it says. To do otherwise totally invalidates you interpretive method. Surprise!

Do so-called Early Church Father's trump INSPIRED writings on this subject? Why should we take the word of any man that blantantly contradicts the words of Christ and the apotles?

Should I take your word for it, or St. Augustine et. al.? Hmmmm...

WM

 

[Dr. Walter]

Its obvious from that fact alone that Genesis is not chronologically acurate and was never inteded to be so.

WM

Here is the bottom line. Christ said in explicit and clear terms that man originated "AT the BEGINNING" of creation not billions of years AFTER the beginning. All your finite human logic based upon the finite human logic of others flatly contridicts the words of Christ and so one of you is misinterpreting Genesis one.

Christ words are specific TIME words which explicitly place the origin of man in Genesis 1:27 in a specific time relationship with creation. The term "at" does not mean "after" and the term "beginning" does not mean "end."

The apostolic writings confirm Christ's view point! They confirm that the entire chapter describes what God spoke into existence rather than what was a NATURAL developmental process over billions of years. So, it is not merely Christ's words but the words of two or three more witnesses that spoke under inspiration.

The term "beginning" can include the whole seven literal days because each day manifested the "beginning" of something new.

Moreover, no evolutionist would ever use the TIME language of Christ to describe the origin of man in regard to the origin of the universe.

 

[WestminsterMan]

There are many kinds of death in the Bible.
You quoted one type of death: Physical death--separation of the spirit from the body.
1. Spiritual death is separation of the spirit from God. See Eph.2:1--You hath he made alive who were once dead in trespasses and sin.
2. Eternal death: Eternal death is in opposition to eternal life. It is separation from God for all eternity.
3. The Second Death--The final sentence of God.

There are more than these mentioned in the Bible. Death is always separation. Adam died spiritually the day that he sinned. He died physically 930 years later.

But Genesis doesn't say that does it. You cannot take parts of Genesis literally and then try to wiggle out of it in other spots. This is your conundrum.

WM

 

[Dr. Walter]

Hey - you're the one who needs to take Genesis literally - not me. So, it says that Adam would die the same day that he ate of the tree. It doesn't say anything about spiritual death, light bearers, or any other such garbage. If you're going to hold that Genesis literally means six-24 hour days because it uses that phrase "six days" in the creation story, then you must be consistent and take Adams death to mean a physical death that took place in one 24 hour day - because that's literally what it says. To do otherwise totally invalidates you interpretive method. Surprise!

The Hebrew text literally says "dying thou shalt surely die" showing it is a process that began the very day he ate. Are you saying you do not understand the Biblical concept of "death" any deeper than its physical aspect?

Should I take your word for it, or St. Augustine et. al.? Hmmmm...

WM

God gave His Word so that you would not have to seek out human opinions but you would have his direct word on it? It is His Word that is inspired not Agustine et. al.??? Hmmmmmm...

 

[DHK]

But Genesis doesn't say that does it. You cannot take parts of Genesis literally and then try to wiggle out of it in other spots. This is your conundrum.

WM

I do take Genesis literally. Adam died, and yet lived. His death was spiritual. How do we know?
1. Because death means separation.
2. Because death means different kinds of separation in different parts of the Bible.
3. Because we must choose the definition of "death" which best fits the context, which is spiritual death in this case.
4. Because Adam continues to live on. Obviously it wasn't physical death. Physical death is ruled out by context.
5. Because shortly after God provides coats of skins. For what purpose? The climate had not changed. No, it was to sacrifice the first animal. Blood had to be shed to make an atonement for their sin that they might be reconciled back to God--that there would no longer be that spiritual separation between them and God.

Context provides the key.

 

[WestminsterMan]

Here is the bottom line. Christ said in explicit and clear terms that man originated "AT the BEGINNING" of creation not billions of years AFTER the beginning. All your finite human logic based upon the finite human logic of others flatly contridicts the words of Christ and so one of you is misinterpreting Genesis one.

I never said it took God billions of years to create the Earth. I said that Genesis is not chronologically accurate. Your own statement isn't in line with a literal account of Genesis either. Let's just take the bolded statement above. "At the beginning..." should mean that Adam was created on day one at the beginning. Yet, Genesis 1:11 has the trees made on day three before man; Genesis 2:0 has the trees made on day six after man. I could go on but there's really no need.

Christ words are specific TIME words which explicitly place the origin of man in Genesis 1:27 in a specific time relationship with creation. The term "at" does not mean "after" and the term "beginning" does not mean "end."

The apostolic writings confirm Christ's view point! They confirm that the entire chapter describes what God spoke into existence rather than what was a NATURAL developmental process over billions of years. So, it is not merely Christ's words but the words of two or three more witnesses that spoke under inspiration.

The term "beginning" can include the whole seven literal days because each day manifested the "beginning" of something new.

Moreover, no evolutionist would ever use the TIME language of Christ to describe the origin of man in regard to the origin of the universe.

I am not an evolutionist.

WM

 

[WestminsterMan]

I do take Genesis literally. Adam died, and yet lived. His death was spiritual. How do we know?
1. Because death means separation.
2. Because death means different kinds of separation in different parts of the Bible.
3. Because we must choose the definition of "death" which best fits the context, which is spiritual death in this case.
4. Because Adam continues to live on. Obviously it wasn't physical death. Physical death is ruled out by context.
5. Because shortly after God provides coats of skins. For what purpose? The climate had not changed. No, it was to sacrifice the first animal. Blood had to be shed to make an atonement for their sin that they might be reconciled back to God--that there would no longer be that spiritual separation between them and God.

Context provides the key.

Then your interpretation is inconsistent with a literal interpretation of Genesis. That's typically the case.

WM

 

[Dr. Walter]

Hey - you're the one who needs to take Genesis literally - not me. So, it says that Adam would die the same day that he ate of the tree. It doesn't say anything about spiritual death

Now you are calling God a liar. You have called Christ a liar and now you accuse him of lying again. You agreed that God said he would die on the day he ate and it is you that defined "die" in such a way for you to demand that God lied because he did not die on that day.

Here is the real truth. You are not concerned with truth at all but with merely winning an argument any way you can even though your arguments are irrational and obvious perversions of God's Word.

ABSOLUTE PROOF? You completely ignored the evidence I provided in Ephesians 2:1-3 where the words "spiritual death" do no occur either but only the word "dead." Deal with it or simply admit you are not interested in really seeking the truth.

 

[WestminsterMan]

The Hebrew text literally says "dying thou shalt surely die" showing it is a process that began the very day he ate. Are you saying you do not understand the Biblical concept of "death" any deeper than its physical aspect?

Nice dodge. The dicussion was about your literal interpretation of Genesis and one that cannot be logically defended.

God gave His Word so that you would not have to seek out human opinions but you would have his direct word on it? It is His Word that is inspired not Agustine et. al.??? Hmmmmmm...

Well there doc, I think it's very clear to any honest reader that everyones theology is sprinkled with there own fallible "human" opinions. That being the case, I have no problem taking an EFC's opinion over yours any day.

WM

 

[Dr. Walter]

Then your interpretation is inconsistent with a literal interpretation of Genesis. That's typically the case.

WM

When Adam died spiritual he was "dead" in the same literal sense that Paul speaks of in Ephesians 2:1. Spiritual death is not a figure of speech nor is it a non-literal statement! You have a literal "spirit" and a literal "body" and both are subject to literal death. The Genesis passage is stated in such a way to include literal death in its most comprehensive application - dying thou shalt surely die. Spiritual death produces all temporal results (sickness, disease) as well as culimating in physical and eternal death of both spirit and body.

It is you that is perverting the LITERAL meaning of death by restricting it to only a physical aspect when LITERALLY it is comprehensive of much more.

 

[Dr. Walter]

"At the beginning..." should mean that Adam was created on day one at the beginning. Yet, Genesis 1:11 has the trees made on day three before man; Genesis 2:0 has the trees made on day six after man. I could go on but there's really no need.

You are not interested in serious debate because you ignored my answer to this objection. The answer was given right in the same post.

Every single day of the seven literal days was the "beginning" of something new and thus the "beginning of creation" includes all seven days. This does not violate the use of such language when every day is tied together with the following days in the final words of Genesis 1:31-2:1-3.

However, Christ's words are impossible to fit with a FIGURATIVE or SYMBOLIC days consisting of millions or billions of years.

BTW I did not call you an evolutionist! I was describing a Theistic Evolutionists or one who inteprets the days of Genesis one as symbolic of thousands, millions or billions of years to harmonize with the old age theory and evolutionary developments claimed by them.

 

[quantumfaith]

The Universe is approximately 13.86 Billion years, as we measure years.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Nice dodge. The dicussion was about your literal interpretation of Genesis and one that cannot be logically defended.

What is wrong with your mind????? Do you really think that the early age position is based strictly upon the wording of the KJV version at the exclusion of the literal Hebrew text????? Your response here is absolutely irrational.

Well there doc, I think it's very clear to any honest reader that everyones theology is sprinkled with there own fallible "human" opinions. That being the case, I have no problem taking an EFC's opinion over yours any day.

WM

No! The truth is that you deny God's Word as final authority for faith and practice (Isa. 8:20) and that is precisely why you depend upon TRADITIONS of the elders for your theology.

 

[DHK]

Then your interpretation is inconsistent with a literal interpretation of Genesis. That's typically the case.

WM

I gave you five reasons why it isn't. If you don't accept those reasons then I can't help you.

 

[Dr. Walter]

​

The Universe is approximately 13.86 Billion years, as we measure years.

Oh yeah? And what will the age be next year:tongue3: Do you realize how many times your authorities have changed their mind concerning the date of the earth???? Christ said that Genesis 1:37 occurred "AT the BEGINNING" of creation and that eliminates billions of years between the origin of creation and the origin of man. Your position flatly contradicts the words of Christ and the apostles (see post #201).

 

[matt wade]

I gave you five reasons why it isn't. If you don't accept those reasons then I can't help you.

There's nothing we can do for those that don't believe what God has to say. We can only pray that the Holy Spirit soften their hearts and show them the truth.

 

[quantumfaith]

​

Oh yeah? And what will the age be next year:tongue3: Do you realize how many times your authorities have changed their mind concerning the date of the earth???? Christ said that Genesis 1:37 occurred "AT the BEGINNING" of creation and that eliminates billions of years between the origin of creation and the origin of man. Your position flatly contradicts the words of Christ and the apostles (see post #201).

13.86 billion plus 1.

 

[quantumfaith]

FWIW: One of my favored apologists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IQoLg7w-_4

 

[Dr. Walter]

Men who wrote under inspiration intepreted the entire contents of Genesis 1 as literally spoken into existence by God. They did not regard Genesis One as figurative or symbolic but literal and historical.

However, for those who would insist the days of Genesis one are figurative and symbolic rather than literal or historical, answer the following questions:


Literal statement or figurative words:

1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.


Literal statement or figuragive words:

And God said, let there be....and it was so - v. 1

And God said, let there be....and it was so- v. 6

And God said, let the....and it was so- v. 9

And God said, let the.....and it was so - v. 11

And God said, let the.....and it was so- v. 14

And God said, let the......- v. 20

And God said, let the.....and it was so- v. 24

And God said, let the.....- v. 26

And God said, let the.... - v. 29


Did those who wrote under inspiration give credence to a poetic symbolic heremeneutic in Genesis One or see it as Literal and historical?:

Heb. 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Ps 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.



Does the following Hebrew parallelism indicate symbolism or emphasis of literal and historical record?

Ps 33:9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.


Ps 148:5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.



Peter spoke of Evolutionists and Theistic Evolutionists after this manner:

2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:




God interpreted the six days of creation and the seventh day of rest in a LITERAL HISTORICAL manner by making it the EXAMPLE for humans to apply on a week by week basis:

Ex. 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 FOR in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


Jesus denied any hermeneutic that allowed for the days in Genesis One to be interpreted as symbolic or figurative of millions and billions of years between the origin of the universe and the origin of the human specie.

Mt 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

Mr 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

Gen. 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Those who interpret the Genesis record so that billions of years take place between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:26-27 are making Christ a liar. Those who teach evolution or theistic evolution are making Christ a liar. Man did not originate billions of years AFTER the origin of the universe but "AT THE BEGINNING" and thus "FROM THE BEGINNING of the creation of God.