Are There Such as "carnal" Christians?

Unfortunately, The Spirit of Carnality Shows Up from Time to Time...

...Right here on the BB.

Examples and names are not needed, because it is evident when the carnal man sneaks through from time to time. Yes, I'm ashamed to admit it, but periodically, carnality creeps into some of my comments, especially when I'm angered and frustrated with another member who, out of carnality judges, belittles, or insults my input and comments, calling into question my theology and relationship with Jesus.

Thus, I guess we can conclude that at times we are carnal by omission [oversight or neglect] and others times we are carnal by the act of willful [deliberate and intentional] commission. Take your pick, it does happen, but it doesn't keep Him from loving us any less!

Shalom,

Pastor Paul :type:

 

...and that is well spoken and is truth!!! :thumbsup:

 

What real believer lives without the discipline of His Heavenly Father???

No...real christians have a new nature.....just one new nature....the old man has been crucified Romans6

you do not go from Spiritual ..back to carnal.

 

Now let's see you say "Sarkikos- carnally minded Paul stating to the Corinthians who were believers


False.....to be carnally minded.....is death......romans 8:6.....only two men in the world....not three.

A real christian can act or commit acts of sin...that are out of character...

they can act like...mere men...that is why it is out of character...they are if God has saved them....Pneumatikos

Paul says one who is carnally minded is death, this is of course referencing operational death the believer is no longer operating in the power of the Holy Spirit. Of course the first sin leads to Temporal death which is the believer temporarily out of fellowship with God. God will not hear our prayer when sin is present, He hears us when we confess out sin and that restores fellowship and the believer is again filled with the Holy Spirit. So Sarkikos is what Paul used of an operatioanlly dead believer.


James 4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Notice if we as belivers have sin in our lives our prayers are answered because we ask amiss, with sin in our hearts. Verse is very clear what we are to do to have God hear our prayers.

ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

God commands or gives us a devine mandate, to be filled with the Spirit so that makes it a choice. Pleroo means to fill up a deficiancy, to fully influence, to fill with a certain quality.
So that we must choose to confess sin as, 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. commands us. When we confess we are filled with the Holy Spirit.

So again you saying I am speaking false doctrine is a false accusation but again you give no proof of your accusation.

 

Again you fail to see scripture as 1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Seems really clear this is a believer who has failed to serve God and failed to live for Him but Paul says He is saved? So Paul says a real believer can live apart from God but it is also made very clear that believer who lives that way will be chastened of God,

Paul made it very clear a believer can be carnal 1 Corithians 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
Again here in 1 Corinthians 3 Paul says the Corinthians were Sarkikos (carnal) because they had sin in their lives, they had gone from serving and foollowing to back biting calling people false teachers making false accusations because they had sin dominating their lives as believers, So Paul says believers can become carnal and not as you say "No...real christians have a new nature.....just one new nature....the old man has been crucified Romans 6
you do not go from Spiritual ..back to carnal.

Romans 6: you use one part but don't get down to the part that says we as Christians are to: 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
and we are not to 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

If Paul we are not to let sin reign then we must as believers be able to have sin reign, we are dead to it's domination the old man (old nature) has died in its domination of us, but we can revert back to sin and allow it to reign in our mortal bodies. We are not to obey our lust but to resist them. We are able to have sin reigning according to Romans 6.

Hebrew 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Most of us will hearken when He chastens notice too if a believer isn't chastened then he isn't a true believer. But the believer out of God's will not being controlled by the Holy Spirt will be chastened.

 

The sense I get from you Icon is:
"I either can't explain it to you, or don't want to explain it to you, so just go read a book--I really can't be bothered."

If you don't want to engage in any meaningful discussion say so.
I don't debate "audiosermons" and other websites. I thought you could figure that out by now.

 

revmac

this is quite fanciful....lol....Although I think I understand what you are getting at.....I think it has missed the mark of biblical teaching.

Well Dhk....I think there might be a failure to communicate...[cool hand luke]... Others seem to understand it just fine.
I think you and a handful of others here do not want anything explained at all...

when you turn away from proven teachers...then speak about....meaningful discussion.....more often then not turns into shared ignorance...

I once emailed a fundamentalist "pastor"...questioned his errant teaching...he could not respond..so he attacked the messenger...what a surprise.

Most of the men on sermonaudio...are very solid...yet you will not listen!
there are some very fine websites...yet you will not look

Before you said...I wonder how many websites Peter had access to....
Well I know one thing...He did not say.....No I will not read Pauls writings....I just want to have meaningful dialog:thumbsup:

Sometimes sadly...some listen to these other men....find they cannot answer their teaching...so instead make an excuse why they do not read or listen to others....I hope that is not descriptive of you

 

It fits with biblical teaching. I learned of the seven deaths mentioned in Gods word from my Pastor I grew up and the Professor of the Bible institute and several commentaries that I have found and the 7 types of death all fit scripture perfectly. You must not have run into Bible teachers that teach the deep things of scripture.

 

In case you are wondering about the 7 Types of death seen in Scripture this is what I was taught and see in the word.

1 Physical we all know how this is seperation of thew soul from the body for the unbeliever and the soul and spirit for the believer.

2. Spiritual Death - everyone is born Spiritually dead. As Romans 5 tells us death was imputed to all mankind. This death is sepration of the human spirit from God in time. GEN. 2:17; Rom 5:12; Ephesians 2:1

Gen. 2: 17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

What happened Adam and Eve hid from God (seperation from God in Time) in shame of there sin and God made the way for restoration.

Ephesians 2:1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

We were spiritually dead in tresspasses and sin.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Spiritual Death passed upon all mankind at birth.

3. The Second Death - the seperation of the unbeliever from God for all eternity.
Heb. 9:27; Rev. 20:12 -15; Luke 12

4. Positional death- the believer is dead positionallly with Christ death on the cross as well as his Ressurection and Ascension and session.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Col. 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Col. 3:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

5. Temporal death - seperation of the believer from fellowship with God in time.
Luke 15:24, 32
Romans 8:6
Eph. 5:14
1 Tim 5:6
James 1:15
Rev. 3:1

6. Operational Death - seperation for operating in the control of the Holy Spirit. This could even be good works but not lead of the Holy Spirit.
1 Tim. 5:6 Applies to Temporal and Operational.
Hebrews 6:1
James 2:26

7. Sexual Death - sepration of the ability to reproduce.
Rom. 14:17 - 21
Heb. 11:11 -12


I have heard of one called Optional death.

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

It still amazes me that so many so called Christians believe they live perfect sinless lives and can not fall back into sin even when scripture after scripture shows how low we can sink. Example after example in the bible of believers slipping off into sin and continuing to live in it. Lot gives us the perfect example he lived in sodom and gomorrah we are told he vexed his righteous (that means he is a believer) soul daily. He lived in sin and even offered his virgin daughters to the men of the town and yet he was saved yet controlled by sin and lust. We see Abraham lieing to the Pharoah about Sarah and living in that sin, Isaac and Rebekah doing the same thing all believers and all living sinful lives. We see Samson living sinfully and even being disciplined by the loss of his sight and in the end asking God to strengthen him one last time. A believer living in sin.
Yet people in our time want to say they live without sin and can't fall back into a life of sin and be true christians sorry the bible doesn't hold true to that belief. You just as well not believe in eternal security as to believe a true believer can't revert back into a life of sin.
The man in 1 Corinthians who was involved in gross sin was a believer and Paul affirmed that he should be turned over to Satan for destruction of his flesh but his soul would be saved. Yet another example of a believer falling back into a life of sin and living in it.
Yet you guys are scared to admit or want to drive fear into believers and make them doubt their salvation instead of going to them and trying to correct it. Rather judge them as an unbeliever because it doesn't fit your preconceived notion that a believer just can't live that life, yet we see in scripture time after time believers living in sin and still being saved.

 

Here is another example of how low Christians can sink...

Revelation 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.​

Beware however because in pointing out this fact you will probably be accused of hiding some sin your self by the self appointed accusers of the brethren.​

Rather than offering the advocacy of the restoration of Christ for those of His who have fallen or wandered from the way accusations are forthcoming (of which they seem unable to resist).​

FWIW here is my scriptural advise to those sheep who have wandered:​

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:​

HankD​

 

If the old nature has been eradicated, why did Paul and other NT writers tell us so often to "put off" sin?

Eph 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Why would Paul need to tell us to put off all these sins if the old nature was eradicated? Why did he need to tell us to put on the new man?

And this is only a few of the many like verses in the NT.

 

I have many "teachers," a library of over 2,000 for starters, and many more than that. I know where to go. I want to give you an illustration that I hope you will take with some understanding.
Do you know that the there are more J.W.'s with a Baptist background than any other religious background? With that in mind, if a J.W. comes to your door and urges you to read their "sermon audio's", and their material, would you do it? I don't. I don't waste my time doing it. If I want to find out about their beliefs I can go to other sources, and occasionally go to an "original source" like their version of the Bible. But I don't have to wade through their material.
Neither do I have to wade through your material. I have my Bible. I study it. I have my library, my sources, (some of which are Calvinists). I don't need to waste my time going to what you consider "Godly teachers). This is not a slam on you. If everyone on the board recommended me to do the same I would be overwhelmed and would have no time to do anything else. I have a life other than this board.

The object here is for you to convince me or refute me; and I you. Isn't that what debate is all about. Or on a lesser level at least discuss the value of each other's point of view.

I don't know that. They are proven teachers to you; not to me. I am happy for you that you have people that agree with your system of theology. That doesn't mean I want to hear them, or have the time to hear them. Nor does it mean that you should jump to the conclusion that I despise teachers. That is an unwarranted personal attack and you should know better.

But why are you attacking me?
Neither can you refute my position Biblically so you resort to sermon audio's. That is pitiful.

I don't debate sermon audios. Let's make that clear. This is a debate board. I have lots to read in my spare time. I don't need your material. I don't want it. What you consider a good teacher; I man not. We have our differences of opinion what good teachers are.

But I do read Paul's writings, and Peter's do. That is where I get my information, not from your Calvinistic friends. I don't need them. Don't post them here.

I listen to many. I just finished (last week) attending (in Canada), a National Preacher's Conference. It was a blessing and I sat under a number of good preachers. One of them gave a good refutation of Calvinism

 

DHK

If you post this"fine sermon"..this refutation....unlike like you...I will listen to it. I go out of my way to listen to error. It confirms the truth all the more.
I will gladly correct it for you and explain where this refutation has gone against the truth.

you admit here to a double standard..you do listen to others[preachers...books..2000 of them].....but you select which ones to listen to.

If you look at the threads....when you attack...we respond DHK...it is that simple......if you pay attention when you say any of the following
you follow calvin.....calvinism is wrong.....calvinism says....but my bible says......
Do you think we are not going to respond with correction?
We have offered correction to you which you resist as we have also shown to you.
DHK...you can hold onto error as much as you want to...but I would not recommend it.

While it is fashionable to say...well we are all christians, and we will have to agree to disagree......I think I am learning that quite possibly we are discussing two different God's...two different Gospels...and only one of them is correct.
That is not to say...that at a later time people here can be united in belief by God's grace. Some of the posts are very frightful to me.
Your conference with men preaching against God's truth sounds like the blind leading the blind...both falling into a ditch. To deliberately speak against the truth...shows a person who is in the flesh in my estimation.

Do not mis-understand.....I cannot read the hearts nor can you. I also know that there have been godly men....J.C. Ryle, Richard Baxter, etc who seemed off on a few areas......but they shared in a belief in the saving grace of God.
I hope those who you speak of are ministers of God.
If truth is spirit given and they oppose it.....makes me wonder

No one snowflake thinks they are the cause of the avalanche.....many a false minister has a zeal without knowledge..that is fleshly.
They preach week after week a false message..not being sent of God.

 

You must live in a unique part of the world. I have never met a single Christian who believes they live sinless lives. What we do know is that no believer continues to practice sin. The problem is not with the bible and what it says but with people who reject what it says and claim a person can be saved and fall back into sin when the bible says it cannot happen.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

Yes indeed...sinless perfection...No that cannot happen...
Mortification of remaining sin and corruption...yes that must happen!!

It does not say he was a brother..it says if any be called a brother

No carnal christian here!

 

Thanks for sharing from Ephesians.
Eph 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their MIND,
This describes the Self-Directed (Ego-directed) MIND of the Carnal Christian. The "Old Man" if you will.

Eph 4:20-21 But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus
When have you been "taught by Jesus"? Did you have to actually walk next to Jesus?
NO. The Holy Spirit directed Christian (Spiritual Christian) "HEARS" Jesus in his MIND. He has differentiated between the MIND of the
Old Man and the New Man. He is not relying on his own intellectual prowess, but is learning directly from the Master
And be renewed in the spirit of your MIND - Eph 4:22

It all takes place "in the MIND". The Holy Spirit "directs you into all Truth".

 

You and Icon are saying one must be sinless to be a true christian.

With you view point you must feel that scripture lied about Lot.

Peter made it very clear about Lot and the person who becomes carnal.

2 Peter 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds

Notice he says Lot was just, he had been justified by Faith, yet he was vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked, he was just but was as one of them. That righteous man (Lot) dwelt amoung them, seeing and hearing he vexed his righteous soul from day to day. Sounds very much like a just, righteous saved man can fall back into sin. Not as you and ICON and others see a believer must live a sinless life and stay upright through his walk. Either Peter was wrong in saying Lot was a just and righteous man living in sin or your way of thinking might need to be looked at. Lot never fully returned to God he dwelt in caves and had sons by his dughters, yet Peter says He was just and righteous. He was a carnal believer scripture affirms it. Notice agian what Paul said to the Romans in chapter 8: 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
We are not debtors to the flesh to live after is but i we (Paul is speaking to believers) live after the flesh, sounds a lot like a believer can live after the flesh. The word in the greek for flesh here is sarx of which we see the word carnal (Sarkikos) so again we see believers living in the flesh. Verse 13 if we through the power of the Spirit mortify (put to death) the deeds of the body we will live. Again Paul is addressing believers who live in the sarx (flesh) therefor being Carnal (Sarkikos).

Scripture is quite clear, two apostles both show that true believers can revert back to living in the flesh. They don't live sinless lives as you and ICON want to say, they don't live perfect lives, they live in sin and are saved. We all sin and come short of God's glory. Many of us as Christians never revert fully back into sin, as you seem to think but scripture is very clear we can revert back and vex our souls as we walk in sin.
ICON says "Mortification of remaining sin and corruption...yes that must happen!!" but Paul says if now we need to see the condition of the word if here:
1st Class = Positive - True
2nd Class = Negative - False
3rd Class = Neutral - Maybe
4th Class = Wish List
So Paul is using it in the Third class maybe we will mortify the deeds of the flesh but maybe we won't too. The term if must be looked at in the class it is used. Here we see Paul saying maybe we through the power of the Spirit mortify the deeds of the flesh, then we shall live operating in the Power of the Spirit.

John in 1 st John 1:9 uses the same class of if, maybe we will confess our sins, it says if we confess our sins, again it is we who must do this.
John also reiterates that a believer can walk in sin notice 1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
Again Maybe some will say I have fellowship with Christ but the are walking in sin they lie and are not doing the truth, again the key word here is "we" John is speaking to believers.

Then he completes it with these verses:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

It is filled with the 3 rd class condition of "IF". Througout scripture the Apostles make it clear a believer can walk in darkness, walk in sin and not confess it and still be saved a believer can be in the sarx (flesh) be a Sarkikos (carnal) person and yet still be saved.