Preterism and the Necessity of Honoring the Timing Statements of Christ’s Return

Exactly. Distant churches would not have had Rev. for years. So the same "time statements" problem exists for preterists as for anyone else.

 

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/jewishtemple.htm

Many don't take into consideration how long it took Rome to defeat Jerusalem and ransack the city, destroying the Temple. It didn't all happen in just one day sometime in the year 70 A.D. The entire city was surrounded as early as 68 A.D. The city finally fell in 70 A.D.

How does that affect the rest of Scripture, and the promises that are connected with the Second Coming? We know John's Gospel was written in the 90's. What about Paul's epistles? His latest epistles were his pastoral epistles.

1Timothy written in 66-67 A.D.
Titus written in 66-67 A.D.
2Timothy written in 68 A.D.
2Peter written in 68 A.D.
I,II,III John written ca. 90 A.D.
Jude written 67-68 A.D.
Revelation written in 96-98 A.D.

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; (2 Timothy 4:1)

Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. (2 Timothy
4:8)
Every reference in the above books would be rendered null and void by the Preterist point of view:
1. Because the actual siege of Jerusalem began in 68 A.D., not 70 A.D.
2. Because it takes time to travel. Remember Paul was in Rome in 68 A.D., the probable year of his death. In his very last letter (2Tim.) he writes to Timothy and asks him to bring him the books and the parchments, probably some of the very books that are now part of our very canon. IOW travel was slow. The canon was not yet complete.
3. Paul wrote his epistles to the Corinthians in ca. 55 A.D. It is probable that they would not have received many of those epistles yet that were written after that date. In fact, even Matthew, where most of the promises and prophetic passages were taken from, was written in 61 A.D., well after the epistles to the Corinthians. How would they even know about these prophecies that Christ promised? They didn't even have his gospel!!

It is as if Jesus would be making promises to believers who would not be prepared hear them, obey them. It makes no sense.

 

Does it make you feel better about yourself to denigrate others?

 

To quote comedian Robin Williams: "reality, what a concept!"

 

I won't be able to participate in this thread any more. Just found out last night that my Mom has gone on to glory. But I'll try to read the thread through sometime next week, and I do hope this time you'll answer my point about the preterist problem with the time statements.

 

A point that I have made that likewise has gone unanswered here is according to Kenneth Gentry all of Revelation except chapter 20 beginning vs. 7 to the concordance are history. This would mean that the Rev ch. 19 battle of judgement was (to preterist thinking) the AD70 sacking of Jerusalem. This would imply that the army of heaven was actually the heathen Roman army led by Titus, which is of course not true.

 

The visible and bodily assumption of Jesus Christ.

Acts 1

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.​

His (this same Jesus) return "in like manner" (visible and bodily):

Zechariah 14
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.​

Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.​

Revelation 1

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

HankD​

 

God can and does cause literal earthquakes and fires:
You cannot prove these things you mentioned were not literal in every case and/or were not related to Isaiah's prophecy mentioned by Amos and Zechariah.

In addition you cannot prove that Isaiah's near prophecies were not addressing as a far reaching prophecy the cataclysmic events at the end of the age.

Amos 1:1 The words of Amos, who was among the herdmen of Tekoa, which he saw concerning Israel in the days of Uzziah king of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash king of Israel, two years before the earthquake.​

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.​

2 Chronicles 7:1 Now when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the LORD filled the house.​

1 Samuel 14:15 And there was trembling in the host, in the field, and among all the people: the garrison, and the spoilers, they also trembled, and the earth quaked: so it was a very great trembling.​

NKJ Isaiah 64:3 When You did awesome things for which we did not look, You came down, The mountains shook at Your presence.​

Exodus 19
17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.
18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.
19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.​

In the final anaysis it is the discernment of the reader as to which words are meant to be literal and which are metaphor.​

Also, your approach and demeanor will only alienate folks as to your position.​

HankD​

 

Question for you, HankD:

Are the following verses from Isaiah meant to be taken literal? If so, when did it happen?

Isa 13:10 For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light.

Isa 13:13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger.

 

raying:raying:raying:

 

I'm just a simple country boy without a seminary education but I sure don't see things the way most of you do. This whole thread is concerned with when Christ makes his second appearance and when prophesy is fulfilled. Ok so here goes:

As for the temple being destroyed and rebuilt scripture is plain, it is Christ crucifixion and resurrection:

(Joh 2:19) Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

(Joh 2:20) Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

(Joh 2:21) But he spake of the temple of his body.

Now for his appearance:

He came to me the first time and brought condemnation:

(Rom 8:3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

And his second appearance when he brought me salvation

(Heb 9:28) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

Hi logos1,

I have thought about it and obviously there won't be a meeting of the minds except to say that discernment is necessary when interpreting scripture.

I have no problem with the theophanies of God or God appearing to man in a recognizable form and/or God doing some very "material" things.

Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.​

"presence" in this passage is the Hebrew word for "face".
He walked, they heard His voice and hid themselves from His face.​

Exodus 24
9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.​

God appeared to Abraham as three men and ate a meal with Him:​

Genesis 18
1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.
7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.
8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
9 And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.​

God has chariots and horses in heaven:
2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.​

As to God riding a cloud:​

Acts 1
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.​

"this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven"​

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.​

As I said there will not be a meeting of the minds therefore I respond for the benefit of others to know and discern the traditional point of view.​

This is the essential difference between preterism and futurism:

The visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ to the earth as was promised in Acts 1:11 of which we are told in Zechariah 14 that He will fulfill this promise and return to to earth to the Mount of Olives (from whence He was taken up in a cloud) to save the remnant of Israel.​

In Zechariah 14 though the Lord gathers the nations against Israel, the Lord saves Israel, He does not allow the gentile nations to destroy her.​

Let the readers discern for themselves.​

Logos1 you speak of plain language:​

2 Peter 3
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.​

Here Peter appeals to a literal happening- the perishing of the earth by the flood and then speaks of the next cataclysm of both the heaven and earth by fire with an explanation of a very material like katharsis.​

And on and on and on... every passage indicating the visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ and/or the day of the Lord both in the Old and New Testament must be spiritualized.​

OK if you wish to call my literalness of the several passages discussed "desparation", so be it. ​

BTW, If Christ is ruling and reigning why are there still cemetaries being filled? Why the violence in the world escalating in a geometric progression? ​

Also, if all has been fulfilled, you must of necessity believe the resurrection has already occured in spite of the plain language of ​

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.​

If the message of full preterism (discovered after almost 2000 years) is so plain and simple how is that these passages (among a multitude of others) need pages of explanation as to the supposed fact that they do not say what they appear to say in plain and simple language?

Again, let the reader discern.​

HankD​

 

One more time in case HankD missed it...

 

Isaiah 13 has yet to be fulfilled.

HankD