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Preterism and the Necessity of Honoring the Timing Statements of Christ’s Return

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Logos1, Oct 3, 2011.

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  1. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I am not sure what you are referring to then.
    For example does wine (oinos, yayin) mean wine or grape juice? It depends on the context doesn't it?
    Most of these groups that you mention arose during the inter-testamental period and are not even referred to in the OT. We are speaking of an OT phrase, not NT. As I mentioned this phrase, "The Day of the Lord," can be found as far back as in Mosaic literature (Deuteronomy), and in almost every book from thereon. It was an important doctrine. I am speaking from a Biblical point of view.
    I am looking at it from a Biblical point of view. Think Biblical theology.
    What did the prophets say. How did the people react.
    The Jews had their opportunity:
    "He came to his own but his own received him not" (John 1:11).
    --"The Day of the Lord" is taught far more clearly in the OT then the coming of the Messiah, although both are often taught together. Christ's first coming is often obscured by the teaching of "The Day of the Lord." They thought that Christ was coming then to set up His Kingdom and were disappointed when he didn't.
    Christology is not well defined in the OT, but the Day of the Lord is.
    The Day of the Lord has much to do with judgment.
    In the OT Christ is concealed; in the NT Christ is revealed.
    Other doctrines are found and taught far more clearly then Christology in the OT.
    To be a light to the Gentiles.
    No problem for the long post. I gave you my answer to the purpose of Israel, and don't agree with much of what you have written in the last paragraph.
     
    #81 DHK, Oct 8, 2011
  2. Logos1

    Logos1 New Member

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    Riddle me this Batman

    Mel,

    My good fellow if you wanted to know the answer to your riddle why are we still waiting for the last Martyr to be killed why didn’t you just come out and ask?

    Answer: In regards to biblical prophecy the last martyr was killed in 70 AD.

    Bonus answer: Any and all other judgments, prophecies, and requirements for the “second coming” of the Lord took place by that time also.

    Extended discussion: You could have taken a short cut to this answer through many paths. Obviously any legit reading of Matt 24 ties the destruction of the temple, the end of the age, and the coming of the Lord all together. We know as a historical fact that Jerusalem was destroyed then. We know the end of the age referred to the Old Covenant and anything related to the Old Covenant had to be concluded at the destruction of the temple hence we have to acknowledge the second coming of the Lord then. This would by necessity wrap up all requirements for that event to take place.

    Additional thoughts: As long as people are on earth there will no doubt be some people killed in service of the Lord. Very unfortunate, but a fact none the less. These martyrs are not a part of biblical prophecy just like the modern day state of Jerusalem is not a part of biblical prophecy. It is a political state and not in a covenant relationship with God.

    Sad state of affairs: It is unfortunate that a relative new comer to eschatological thought (Dispensationalism in the 1800s through John Darby and company) have confused so many good Christians about how to apply a little context to bible prophecy. At least we can take comfort in the fact that Dispensationalism has seen its high tide is wilting under the sunlight of truth and more and more people are leaving it in the dust bin of eschatology where it belongs. John Darby RIP.


    “Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

    Why thank you Mel!
     
    #82 Logos1, Oct 8, 2011
  3. Logos1

    Logos1 New Member

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    Hank,

    Your earlier post suggested God came in a form that would allow Christ to come the same way and fulfill a literal, physical Jesus in the sky, clouds rollback, every eyeball see him type of second coming. Your theophanies are quite a different manifestation of God and don’t allow for the aforementioned type of second coming.

    But that point aside.

    You don’t need to worry I am in no way angry with you nor anyone else here and if I were I would be smart enough not to continue debating and doing something that causes me such stress.

    As we have agreed before the points that unite us are much more numerous than matters of eschatology that divide us.

    I consider you a true brother in Christ and one day we will meet on the other side and just think how we can talk over old times posting on the BB then.

    I use to be a very determined dispy myself. But a search for truth was stronger than my devotion to anyone view of eschatology. When the Preterist argument became compelling to me I had no problem adopting a better understanding of biblical prophecy. I understand that others are still on that journey.

    I welcome disagreement with my views and I want the best arguments any other view point can offer to mine. I welcoming challenging thought whenever I can find it.

    I don’t take anything you say as a personal slight against me. I hope you don’t ever think I make anything personal with you. You are in fact one of my favorite futurists. One who is honorable, respectful, and an example to others.

    I guess being a Preterist forces one to expect no quarter in these forums and have an edge that some people find abrasive when you disagree with them. I think anybody who is going to stress over a forum should be doing other things with their time.

    But rest assured Hank I take no personal offense over anything you say and count you as a brother in Christ and look forward to our meeting over on the other side one day.
     
    #83 Logos1, Oct 8, 2011
  4. Logos1

    Logos1 New Member

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    Rev,

    I do find it rather entertaining how futurists try to hang their last defense of the timing of Christ’s coming on a very technical definition of coming quickly. I think it would be fair to say it illustrates just how desperate and bankrupt futurism is to make their last defense on such a supposed technical understanding of “quickly” in view of the broader context of the first century fulfillment of Christ’s coming.

    I mean just ignore the fact that he said in this generation, the one who pierced him see him coming, the high priest see him coming, the Apostles not finish going through the towns of Jerusalem before his comes, tying his coming to the destruction of Jerusalem, etc.

    If you could forget about your preconceived notions and just step back and read this as a normal person you could get a better feel for just how ludicrous this sounds.
     
    #84 Logos1, Oct 8, 2011
  5. Logos1

    Logos1 New Member

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    DHK,

    You said “The definition of a word is best defined by context. Context is king...”

    You should take this advice to heart when you look at the numerous first century references to Christ’s coming and it would be very easy to see the overwhelming context of a first century fulfillment of Christ’s return.
     
    #85 Logos1, Oct 8, 2011
  6. Logos1

    Logos1 New Member

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    Preterist Study Bible

    Well gentlemen I will be away over the weekend and won’t be able to post any more till Monday at best. This thread will probably reach its maximum allowed length by then. I should get back to other duties for a while so may not be posting again right away.

    I saw plenty of throwing stuff against the wall here, but no real rebuttal of the simple fact that if we don’t honor the first century context of Christ’s return then we are undermining the clear meaning of biblical language on Christ’s return and if we can’t honor and respect what the bible tells us on that subject then all the other tenants of Christianity are rendered just as meaningless. Once we establish that we don’t really understand God’s communication on timing then we establish we don’t know how to understand His communication to us period.

    I’ll leave you on a high note.

    There is a coming Preterist study bible. Web site is www.bibleprophecyfulfilled.org

    It will correct many poorly rendered greek terms in most translations such as oikoumene which is commonly translated as whole world when it is actually referring to the Roman world.

    And, restoring the Greek word mello (about to) which is an imminent time indicator to the Holy Scriptures. The NIV for examples omits it 85 times.

    I shall return as time permits.
     
    #86 Logos1, Oct 8, 2011
  7. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I think that says all we need to know about Hyper-preterism. It doesn't let facts get in the way of its interpetations.

    Steve
     
    #87 Martin Marprelate, Oct 8, 2011
  8. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Thanks Logos1, I felt that you took no offense and I certainly don't from your presentations.

    We should all expect some ad hominem responses in a lively debate and it's good to "clear the dust".

    And you are correct, I have curtailed a lot of my responses here at the BB as I see many others have as well but perhaps not for the same reasons.

    HankD
     
    #88 HankD, Oct 8, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2011
  9. michael-acts17:11

    michael-acts17:11 Member
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    DHK's statement is disingenuous at best. When debating the existence of the universal Church, he completely ignores the context surrounding the word ekklesia in lieu of its "dictionary" meaning. Situational hermeneutics form the foundation of dispensationalism.
     
    #89 michael-acts17:11, Oct 8, 2011
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I don't doubt that there are. But, for example, in Joel's prophesy quoted by Peter in Acts chapter 2, the prophesy was only partially fulfilled. It will not be completely fulfilled until Christ comes again sometime in the future. One prophecy--two different events. So it is with many of the prophecies concerning the coming of the Lord.
     
    #90 DHK, Oct 8, 2011
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Apples and oranges.
    Here we are speaking of prophecies, prophetic utterances; there we were speaking of definition of words. You can't yank the definition of a word out of its context and force a modern English definition into it. That is plain nonsense.
     
    #91 DHK, Oct 8, 2011
  12. michael-acts17:11

    michael-acts17:11 Member
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    Context is KING in every genre of Scripture. It's interesting how you yank the meaning of "soon", "quickly", "this generation", etc out of their Scriptural & grammatical contexts in order to force them to fit your dispy definitions. I suppose it is only logical to conclude that you use this eisegetical form of hermeneutics when interpreting the meaning of "church" too.
     
    #92 michael-acts17:11, Oct 8, 2011
  13. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Well I see logos had no answer for the question about what Jesus said must be fulfilled before this generation would pass away maybe you can take a stab at them. Of course if you look at what Jesus said in the context all those things had to be fulfilled before this generation shall not pass. If those things have not taken place then the generation that will not pass would be the generation that sees the fulfillment of ALL those things.
     
    #93 revmwc, Oct 8, 2011
  14. michael-acts17:11

    michael-acts17:11 Member
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    Just read the entire chapter for your answer. Just because you do not understand how it was fulfilled doesn't mean it wasn't fulfilled as Christ promised, when He promised. He is the creator of language & verbal communication. I have no problem believing Him when He used specific grammatically correct & time language which pointed directly to the generation to whom he was speaking. You refuse to read prophetic, apocalyptic language within its proper literary context; preferring to interpret it as literal, historical language, but you have no problem assuming that Christ's specific descriptions of the timing of those events are not to be taken literally; in their proper grammatical contexts. Gotta love situational hermeneutics.
     
    #94 michael-acts17:11, Oct 9, 2011
  15. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    In other words it hasn't been fulfilled literally as parts of this have and preterism agin shown to be wanting. Thanks for proving my point.
     
    #95 revmwc, Oct 9, 2011
  16. michael-acts17:11

    michael-acts17:11 Member
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    How does believing that Christ meant what he said & said what he meant prove your point? Answer me this. What criteria do you use to determine when Christ's own words are to be interpreted as they are written & when they are to be understood as having a different meaning than what a natural reading of the text provides?
    If you are going to just fall back on 2 Peter 3:8, then I must conclude that you are also a theistic evolutionist; since it is just as unnatural to apply that verse to Christ's time statements as it is to apply it to the creation account.
     
    #96 michael-acts17:11, Oct 10, 2011
  17. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Let's see Christ started out Mt 24 saying the temple would be destroyed and there would not be one stone left upon another. That was a short term prophecy and was literally fulfilled, test of a true prophet fulfilled. Jesus said in this same passage many shall come in my name and deceive many, this was literally fulfilled. We shall hear of wars and rumors of wars again literally fulfilled and continuing to be fulfilled. Nation shall rise against nation, kingdom against kingdom, pestilences, and earthquakes in divers (different) places all these are the beginning of sorrows and all this is being literally fulfilled. That is to verse 8 so you would have folks believe that from that point on all prophecy would be metaphorically fulfilled rather than literally? The generation that sees the literal fulfillment of His prophecy will not pass away could this generation in which we are part be that generation that is spoken of as this generation that sees the fulfillement of ALL these things will not pass away. You see there in lies the problem with the preterist interpretation if 70 A.D. return were true then much of Christ longterm prophecy must have been a lie, since the short term was literally fulfilled.
     
    #97 revmwc, Oct 10, 2011
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