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Do You See Relationship/Fellowship with God as being seperate things?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
Short answer is yes. When a christian sins, 2 things are true:
1. Our standing with God as a justifed, loved, adopted child is unchanged; since that is based on the cross, not our works.
2. Our fellowship with God is disrupted. We will need to repent and turn back to him to restore the sweetness of the relationship.
That said, I do not think it is possible to rid ourselves of all sinful thoughts and actions, and I believe that where our sin abounds, graced abounds more! I think one way this works itself out is that God can allow us to grow in one area of our christian walk even when other areas also need work. I may be an alchoholic racists when I get saved, and God may immediatly help me to quickly grow in my ability to put off strong drink, but my racism may be something I don't recognize right away.
1. Our standing with God as a justifed, loved, adopted child is unchanged; since that is based on the cross, not our works.
2. Our fellowship with God is disrupted. We will need to repent and turn back to him to restore the sweetness of the relationship.
That said, I do not think it is possible to rid ourselves of all sinful thoughts and actions, and I believe that where our sin abounds, graced abounds more! I think one way this works itself out is that God can allow us to grow in one area of our christian walk even when other areas also need work. I may be an alchoholic racists when I get saved, and God may immediatly help me to quickly grow in my ability to put off strong drink, but my racism may be something I don't recognize right away.
Also, here's another interesting observation, beginning with a question:
Q - Can a man's frustrated anger at his children be a sign of God's work of grace in his life.
A - I say yes, because of this following situation in our church: A man who used to come to church with his wife and kids was not a believer. He would tell you to your face he just didn't believe all this Jesus stuff. He rarely got upset with his kids (3 wild young girls, one of whom has mild autism and is very hard to handle) because he was simply not that involved and didn't care that much. About 2 years ago, he became a believer, and has since been much more frustrated, angry, and upset with his daughter. We pastors think this is a sign that his heart has changed, because he now cares about they way his daughters will turn out more than he used to. (Now, does he need to address anger toward his daughters? YES. But he is making great strides.
Q - Can a man's frustrated anger at his children be a sign of God's work of grace in his life.
A - I say yes, because of this following situation in our church: A man who used to come to church with his wife and kids was not a believer. He would tell you to your face he just didn't believe all this Jesus stuff. He rarely got upset with his kids (3 wild young girls, one of whom has mild autism and is very hard to handle) because he was simply not that involved and didn't care that much. About 2 years ago, he became a believer, and has since been much more frustrated, angry, and upset with his daughter. We pastors think this is a sign that his heart has changed, because he now cares about they way his daughters will turn out more than he used to. (Now, does he need to address anger toward his daughters? YES. But he is making great strides.
Mu personal relationship with the father is anchored/secured by the Cross, that NEVER can change, but my fellowship is based upon myobedience to the Will of God, and that can and does flucuate!
freeatlast
New Member
No place does NT scripture say fellowship can be broken.
So the Apostle John did not realise that when he was exhorting saints to confess their personal sins commited to God in order to be cleanses/forgiven/restored, he was wrong?
freeatlast
New Member
Like I said before you twist everything you read or hear. There is no mention of a fellowship break. Plus the passage does not mean what you think it means.
Would you care to interprete this passage for us here on the BB than?
freeatlast
New Member
No just believe what it says and don't add to it as you have been doing. To give you a proper understanding you would have to understand what the book is about and that would take way to long. Also it would not matter what was shown you it would be rejected as you always twist things. I will say this much, the verse is speaking about unbelievers not believers.
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Interesting!
Apostle John was adressing in these verses "little children" beloved of God, but you are saying they were lost sinners?
And that John was directing JUST the unsaved that they have sins to confess to God, as the saints no longer had any, living in a state of 'sinless perfection?"
freeatlast
New Member
That is why I am not going to explain the passage to you. You continue to twist what is said. The Lord calls it dusting our feet.
Freeatlast:
Just so we can hear the opposing viewpoint. What would you say happens when you as a christian sin?
Is your walk with God just as good as it was before you sinned? Or is something different? It doesn't matter if you call it "broken fellowship" or not. Are you saying that simply doesn't happen, or are we simply calling it the wrong thing?
Just so we can hear the opposing viewpoint. What would you say happens when you as a christian sin?
Is your walk with God just as good as it was before you sinned? Or is something different? It doesn't matter if you call it "broken fellowship" or not. Are you saying that simply doesn't happen, or are we simply calling it the wrong thing?
freeatlast
New Member
The fellowship increaases when we sin. It is called conviction. The fewllowship is never broken it just changes in type or kind
Let me ask you something. When a Christian sins how long does that sin stay on the believer before it is washed off?
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So could we say that our experience of fellowship with God changes when we sin, and that those sins negatively affect our experience of fellowship with God, even though we can say the fellowship is not broken, because when we are faithless, he remains faithful? If yes, I think that is what we are really speaking of, even if you think we are calling it the wrong thing. If no, then please explain.
As to the question, our sins, future and passed have already been washed by the blood, so it's not as though I am in eternal danger if I die directly after committing some sin... But, If I sin, there are consequences to those sins in this life, part of which is conviction, which gnaws at me, telling me that I need to confess/repent. If I don't, my experience of fellowship with God is certainly disrupted.
Fellowship with the Lord can cease when we sin and our Father corrects us.
But that is from our point of view. IOW, we break the fellowship, if we receive His chastisment with a bad attitude.
Also, if the offense is serious enough and we are not repentant we may find ourselves being separated from by other Christians.
1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat
Often when we sin our prayers and service are hindered.
Hebrews 12
But that is from our point of view. IOW, we break the fellowship, if we receive His chastisment with a bad attitude.
Also, if the offense is serious enough and we are not repentant we may find ourselves being separated from by other Christians.
Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat
Often when we sin our prayers and service are hindered.
Hebrews 12
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Verses 12 and 13 speak of prayer and service.
But IMO FAL is right in this sense: Remember as a child when you got a spanking?
There was a lot of heavy communicating going on between you and your Dad/Mom.
HankD
freeatlast
New Member
My problem is with the teaching that our fellowship is broken. That is simply not correct. It sounds like divorce or that we are abandoned by God until we confess and that is false. The fellowship remains although our prayers are certainly hindered and we are under conviction until we turn from the sin.
Not a divorce FAL, but like some married folks that are having strained relations with each other until they make up.
The difference is that God is perfect, He is never at fault, and He waits patiently for us to heal in our thinking and doing after He administers the rod of correction.
Hebrews 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
Psalm 119:67 Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word.
Psalm 119:75 I know, O LORD, that thy judgments are right, and that thou in faithfulness hast afflicted me.
HankD
Robert Snow
New Member
Romans 6:6-16 (KJV)
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Notice:
"should not" verse 6
"reckon ye" verse 11
"Let not sin" verse 12
"yield ye" verse 13
"shall we" verse 15
"ye yield" verse 16
It appears that we, as Christians, have a choice. Although God says "don't" we still have free will to obey or not.
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Notice:
"should not" verse 6
"reckon ye" verse 11
"Let not sin" verse 12
"yield ye" verse 13
"shall we" verse 15
"ye yield" verse 16
It appears that we, as Christians, have a choice. Although God says "don't" we still have free will to obey or not.
think better way to view this would be as if there was a problem between your child and yourself, as they did things really bad, out of character, and decided to NOT come back to you immediatly for retorration...
They are still your child, but unless/until they choose to comre back home, they will be out in the cold, while your door rremains always open to them to come back whenever they choose to!
perfect!
Great way to sum this up from the biblical perspective!
The Father requests/asks/expects us to do the things befitting our sonship, as they would be for our best, but allows us still the freedom to chose to sin and disobey, but knowing that His 'discipline Rod" will surely attempt to correct us abck to the right path!