Are the Greek/Russian orthodox Valid Christian Churches?

Well, it does spell out exactly what they believe and it is "good and helpful" in that sense. I didn't mind the informational aspects but the first aspect that crossed over the line from informational to defending a false salvation is what I responded to.

 

Yes he certainly pitches his tent exclusively in their camp. But he is also a fundamentalist. There is a lot of overlap in these two schools.

 

Really....I thought he was a lapsed RC......nobody else could be that hateful of them:laugh:

 

Wrong again! I am a "Biblicist"

 

Unfortunately, you completely misundestood the Lord's words here. The will of the Father for entrance into heaven is that your righteousness must "exceed" the righteousness of the best of religious men (Mt. 5:20) and EQUAL the best of God (Mt. 5:48). This is the "rock" or "foundation" that Jesus goes on to speak about upon which ones life "house" must be built if it is to withstand the judgement (rains, floods). There is no distinction between the "house" (life) that collapsed and the "house" that stood firm - the difference was the foundation. A "rock" is a solid object whereas "sand" is a MIXTURE and that is precisely the profession of those Christ said he "NEVER" knew


"Lord, Lord.......HAVE WE NOT DONE..."

Their claim was exactly what you claim - faith in Christ ("Lord, Lord") plus a pious religious life and yet they went to hell. It is not that they were once saved and then lost, but he said that he "NEVER" knew them.

That is your first problem, you don't distinguish between justificaiton and regeneration and if you do, you obviously do not understand either one and what they are designed to accomplish in regard to your person and position.

Jesus is not talking about gaining heaven here at all nor is he talking about maintaining entrance into heaven. He said they were already cleansed through the word (v. 2). He is talking about producing "fruit" for God's glory and for their own benefits (joy, answered prayer, etc.).

When a limb is pruned, it is cutting part of it off. This is what the husbandman (the Father) does to every branch in order to produce more fruit. However, if after pruning by the husbandman, there is no fruit, then "men" (not the Father) cut off the limbs and burn them. Their profession before men is destroyed just as salt that loses its flavor is trampled under the feet of men or considered worthless.

In contrast, if fruit is produced NOT ONE WORD IS SAID ABOUT THAT OBTAINING HEAVEN! What is obtained, is joy, answered prayers, closer communion with Christ.

Let's put the text in its context:

Heb. 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Jesus Christ did not obey in order to be the Son of God. He obeyed because he was the Son of God. Likewise with other begotten children of God. They do not obey in order to become a child of God, they obey because they are children of God. Remember the beattitudes? "Blessed ARE....Blessed ARE...."

No human obeys in order to become, they obey because they "ARE" children of God. There is obedience to the gospel (repentance and faith) but that is "with the heart man beleiveth unto righteousness" and that is the condition of the "new" heart when it is given in regeneration - it is a beleiving heart whereas the old heart was "at enmity with God and not subject to the loaw of God and neither indeed can be."

That is the terms of justification by the law! In order to be justified by the law just as I quoted Paul who puts the same thing in a negative form:

Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Take note of Romans 2:1-3 - this is not a description of beleivers but of of self-righteous HYPOCRITS who believe they will escape judgement by their own works:

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Take note of Romans 2:4 that this is about those who despise God's forebearance and longsuffering with their hypocrisy, that should lead them to repentance rather than despising God:

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Take note of Romans 2:5 that this is about those who are hardened in their own HYPOCRTICAL SELF-RIGHTEOUSENSS believing they will pass the judgement of God over others:


5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Take note of Romans 2:6. It is this class of SELF RIGHTEOUS HYPOCRITES who believe they shall escape the judgement of God over others that Paul then goes on to spell out what the JUST principles that will be employed by God in the judgement of those who come to him by their OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS. Gods' judgement will be completely just rather than biased but will be based strictly upon the MERITS OF THEIR OWN WORKS according to the Standard of God's Law:

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

The fair and just judgement of God's law will render the right verdict as the works demand:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

The fair and just judgement of God's law will judge every man fairly according to the light he received. Since the self-righteous Jew received more light he will be judged above the self-righteous Gentile who received less light:

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

The Jew he is speaking of is fully described in verses 17-24.

The fair and just judbment of God's Law will not respect anyone's person but judge SELF-RIGHTEOUS men fairly according their own personal light:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

This is judgement according to God's Law in order to be justified by the Law according to what you do not according to what you know:

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

This text has nothing to do with the judgement of rewards for the saints as the saints will never stand before the Law of God in order to be justified by their own works because they have already been justified FREELY BY GRACE THROUGH CHRIST - Rom. 3:24-26

This whole context is about SELF-RIGHTEOUS HYPOCRITS who believe they shall escape the judgement of God by their own works. This is judgement of the lost and this is judgement for justification under the law according to their own works. No Christ, No faith, no salvation mentioned here in this context. He continues to describe the kind of person this refers to in Romans 3:17-3:20.

 

Again, no lost person can do "good" by anything they do in God's sight!

The only person that who "have done good" are the true children of God. First, let us define what "have done good" does not mean. It does not mean they live above sin by ommission or commission (I Jn. 1:8-10). It does not mean their good outweighs their bad. It does not refer to stages in spiritual growth where one is more advanced in goodness than another.

What it means is that according to the measure of grace and faith given every saved person they measure up to that measure. They measure up to that degree because it is God that worketh in them both to will and to do of HIS GOOD PLEASURE (Philip. 2:13). They measure up to that degree because "God hath before ordained they should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10b).

In other words, the only human beings that can do "good" in God's sight are those the Holy Spirit enables and produces that goodness in them according to the DEGREE of sanctification God grants each child of God.

However, EVERY child of God will measure up to that DEGREE because every good work they do is a product of God's grace in their life. As Jesus said, some will produce 100 fold, some 60 fold and some 30 fold and so on (Mt. 13:8).

Those who have done good in this context are those described just previously in John 5:24:

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

These are the ones given unto the Son by the Father and NOT ONE of them will fail to come to him and NOT ONE who comes will be lost - Jn. 6:37-40; 10:26-29 because what God begins in them he will also finish (philip. 1:6) and because jesus is not merely the "author" of their faith but he is also the "FINISHER" of their faith (Heb. 12:2) so that NOT ONE who comes to him will be lost by him (Jn. 6:37-40).

 

You have no concept of either the Law's demands or Christ's satisfaction of the Law's demands or you would not contradict yourself in the above statement.

The law demands that none "come short of the glory of God" (Rom. 6:23)! Do you have any concept of what is "the glory of God"? No, you don't. The "glory" of God is God's personal HOLINESS! It is summarized in three statements about God in the flesh

1. He KNEW no sin
2. He DID no sin
3. Neither was sin found in him

The glory of God is not to fail in ANY POINT of the law AT ANY TIME in your existence, as it is to be "perfect EVEN AS your father in heaven IS PERFECT". That is what the law demands to be good enough by your own works to enter heaven or be justified before God!

Now, who has measured up to that "glory"???? Do you actually believe that born again children of God can EVER measure up to that "glory" by ANYTHING they do from their new birth until their death in this life????

Apparently you do as out of one side of your mouth you admit Christ satisfied that demand but out of the other side of your mouth you demand a certain level of righteousness that children of God must measure up in order to be "good enough" to enter heaven.

You have no concept of God's standard of righeousness to enter heaven or Christ satisfaction of that demand! If you did you would not spew out this contradictory message of do good enough if you want to enter heaven! The only thing good enough to enter heaven is to NEVER FAIL in the first place as that is suffient to FOREVER DISQUALIFY YOU from being justified by the law as ONE sin places you under its curse. If a person justified by Christ's righteousness can ever lose their salvation it is impossible to renew them again to repentance because if Christ's death did not work the first time it will not work a second, third or fouth time but only brings shame on the Savior (heb. 6:3-6). After you trust in Christ do you think you are able to be PERFECT even as your father in heaven is perfect?

No, we are saved by GRACE and we are kept by GRACE and it is FREELY by grace through the personal obedience of Christ - Rom. 3:23-26

So, do true children of God obey Christ? Yes, they ALL do but NEVER good enough to measure up to God's Law? Yes, they ALL do but only according to the measure of Grace and faith GIVEN them by God and then WORKED in them and through them by God and that differs from one saint to another but NEVER perfection in this life.

 

Do you keep his commandments at all times? No! So it can't mean that can it? Do you keep his commandments according to God's standard defined by the Law at ANY TIME? Not unless you are "perfect EVEN AS your Father in heaven is PERFECT"! Not unless you NEVER fail in ANY POINT as to fail in ONE POINT is to fail in EVERY point. Not unless you measure up to the "glory of God."

Every true child of God "keep his commandments" according to the measure of grace and faith given each child of God which DIFFERS from one to the other.

Even common sense tells you there is a process of MATURITY where some are in advanced stages over others. Hence, sanctification is in DEGREES and NEVER does anyone attain complete sanctification in this life. Hence, YOU ALWAYS COME SHORT AT ALL TIMES of what God's law demands to be good enough to enter heaven by its standard. So your idea that we will all be judged according to our works in order to be justified by the Law for entrance into heaven guarantees hell for every child of God.

Even common sense and practical experience should tell you it is like climbing a mountain. Many times in climbing up you go down long ways before climbing up again in the process of getting to the top. However, in life YOU NEVER GET TO THE TOP. What if you die as you are going down? Do you go to hell? Only if you are justified by the Law as the law requires that "good" enough to enter heaven is PERFECTION.

Do you remember, the story of the rich young ruler? He came eagerly asking Jesus "GOOD master, what GOOD thing shall I DO to inherit eternal life"

Note the repetition of "GOOD" first to characterize Christ and then to characterize his own ability to do something to obtain eternal life?

Why didn't Christ immediatey say, "repent and believe in me"???? Do you know why He didn't? No, you don't. I will tell you.

This man came to Christ on two false assumptions. First, he came assuming he was as "good" as Christ as he recognized Christ as "good" but equaly recognized he was able to do "good". Second he came assuming that he could "do" something "good" enough to inherit eternal life.

Christ immediately rebuked him by asking "Why callest thou me good"? Why do you think he asked that question? Wasn't Jesus good? or was it because Jesus recognized that he came believing in his own inherit goodness equal to Christ? Did he really know who Christ was and what "good" really meant? No!

So Christ rebuked him and said, "There is NONE GOOD but one and that is God." Is that true? If that is true, then his assumption that he could do "good" enough to obtain eternal life was false! What is God's standard for "good" enough to obtain eternal life? Isn't it the law? So Christ realizes he does not understand God's standard of "good" enough and so points him to the law.

What was the young man's response? ALL THESE THING HAVE I DONE FROM MY YOUTH UP! he believed he kept the law and therefore he denied that "there is none good but one and that is God." He didn't understand the Law's standard of "good enough" and so Christ bluntly told him:

"IF thou wilt be PERFECT" In other words the law's standard to be justified for eternal life is to be "PERFECT even as the Father in heaven is perfect." In other words the law's standard to be justified by your own works is not to come "short of the glory of God." In other words, the standard to be justified by your own works is not to fail in "ONE POINT' as that is failure in all points.

So, Christ put the demand of the second tablet of the ten commandments in practical terms and told him to go sell all that he had?

What would that require? That would require self-denial of all that he depended upon for security and supplies BUT FAITH IN GOD!

he was told to give all the money to the poor. What would that require - complete self-denial placing others better than himself.

he was told then to come and follow him? What would that require - total willingness to submit to Christ before he could follow Christ.

This is what happens when a person "ENTERS" the kingdom of God through gospel conversion. They cannot "ENTER" the kingdom of God until they first turn on self, give up everything they would depend upon or trust except God. They must completely deny themself and submit to following Jesus. THAT IS the entrance to the kingdom.

Now Jesus said this is IMPOSSIBLE with men. He said it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a SEWING needle than it is for rich to "ENTER" the kingdom of God.

What did he mean? Abraham, Job, David, Solomon, Daniel were all rich men! He was not talking merely about physical riches but whatever a person considers MORE VALUABLE or TOO VALUABLE to give up for salvation. Entrance into the kingdom of God requires TOTAL SELL OUT of self and anything else that would stand in the way of submission to Christ.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for men because of their sinful nature! Their nature is not willing to do that - Rom. 8:7 That is why they need to be BORN AGAIN and that is a creative work of God they cannot do.

Every child of God is "created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works" but not perfect obeidence in every work. Only the works that "God hath before ordained that we should walk in." He secures these works by working in us both "TO WILL" and "TO DO" of His good pleasure (Philip. 2:13).

This is why NOT ONE that the Father gives the Son shall fail to come to the Son (Jn. 6:37). This is why NOT ONE that comes to the Son will be lost by the Son (Jn. 6:39) but each one that comes will be raised up again at the last day in perfection (Jn. 6:39b; 40b, 44b).

 

John the Baptist responded to the presence of the Lord while he was in the womb.

I was not confusing serving and saving faith. Serving faith as you call it (never found that term in scripture) is saving faith that has had time to mature. James 2:14-26 I will highlight 26 "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

The fundamental philosophical difference that you are asserting may not be as different of an argument as that which you objected to in my post as you might think. We are saved by faith, yes, but that real faith that saves leads to a transformation inside, which causes one to seek such things as baptism and repentance. If I am mistaken in my assumption about what I was saying and happen to believe about faith, salvation, etc. here, I would attribute that to a possibility that might be Calvinist (Please forgive me if I am wrong. I have not had a chance to fully read on this forum/thread). in which case we have currently irreconcilable differences.

I believe there was some difference in the translation of words that in English are translated as law or works but are not completely reflective of the idea communicated in certain texts. I won't have a chance to go through my Hebraic theology textbook for at least a few days and probably about 20-30 posts the way you guys post.

Also, while I can see how you might confuse my intention in that post as I didn't preface every part with a "they believe," the part that you quoted was taken from an Orthodox website, and the entire post was in reply to a comment and wanting to actually hear what the Orthodox believed as this was the church in question. Future reference, if I answer a post on what XXX believes, I am not going to give my personal opinion in commentary unless I specify that I believe YYY and I would prefer to not have someone say that I am mixing things up when I am not posting my doctrine and consequently would not be the one mixing things up if such things were not mixed up.

 

So you admit your heresy, then?

 

We are CHRISTians not by where we go to church, but by grace through faith, not of yourselves but a gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. If the members of the these churches have been saved this way, they are saved, therefore, my Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

 

No real quarrel with that.

[ETA -I'd like Walter to explain in what way this Anglican church is 'Romanist'. Thank you.]

 

I'd like Walter to explain in what way he believes the Catholic Church is Romanist (as the word is used in a derogatory fashion).

WM

 

Actually, that is a good question. First he would have to define what "romanist" means and then how it applies to the Catholic Church.

 

I wonder if Dr.W and others who dislike icons so much are as opposed to the posters we see in children's Sunday school rooms, or on the covers of books. What about stained glass windows?

 

First, let me say I appreciate your response. Now, in regard to John the Baptist he was also filled with the Spirit from the womb and he was a miracle baby to parents beyond their normal bearing age. Like Jesus, John was not the normal baby, and so he can hardly be used as the rule but rather he is the ultimate rare exception to the rule. Hardly, a case to build a general doctrine upon.

I agree that justification by faith and works are inseparable but not indistiguishable just as the body is not the spirit so neither is justiication by faith synonomous with works. The body may be dead without the spirit but the spirit does not die with separation from the body. Therefore they must never be confused and that is precisely what Rome has done along with all sacramentalists.

I believe you are wrong and Calvinism has nothing to do with it. First, we are not saved "by faith" we are "justified by faith" and salvation is the consequence and thereby we are saved "through" faith. Neither are we justified merely "by faith" but rather by what faith embraces or what is the proper object of faith. Justifying faith must be "in" the proper object. The proper object is not the church, not baptism, not any sacrament. The proper object is the good news of Jesus Christ's complete satisfaction of all the laws demands in behalf of sinners.

Actual justification is found "in" the proper object which is the Person and substitutionary work of Jesus Christ. It is HIS PERSONAL WORKS that satisfies the full demands of God's law against the sinner and faith merely embraces this as the "good news" of the gospel. Embracing this "good news" is appropriating it by imputation to the believer and God declares "the ungodly" person who believeth "in" Christ "without" ones own works considered to be justified before God strictly upon the merits of Jesus Christ in the place of the "ungodly" believer (Rom. 4:4-6).

In regard to our works of righteousness. They do not stem from justification by faith even though they are inseparable from it. They stem from regeneration or the creation of a new nature within that is created in true righteousness and holiness. This is where the "desire" to do good originates from. However, even the "desire" cannot produce good works in our life until there is empowerment of that "desire" by the indwelling Person of the Holy Spirit - for it is God which worketh IN YOU both "TO WILL" and "TO DO" of His good pleasure (Philip. 2:13).

Justification by faith and regenerative works are inseparable in a true child of God but they are not the same. The former has to do with your legal position before God based upon faith in the proper object. The latter has to do with your personal condition by regeneration. The connection between the two is that the faith which embraced Christ as the only hope and object for justification is the same faith now reacts to being justified by Christ by love. Hence faith WORKETH by love! The motivation of this love is completed justification before God or the past tense "saved" position. We serve him out of love because he first loved us and saved us. The internal origin of this love is found in the regenerated nature or disposition of true righteousness and holiness. The power of this love is provided by the indwelling Spirit of God. The productivity of this love is determined by the measure of grace and faith that is given in different degrees to each saint according to God's eternal purpose for their lives.

Hence, the difference between saving and serving faith is the difference between faith "IN" what Christ did FOR US versus what we do FOR HIM. What he did FOR US necessarily is "without works" on our part as HE DID IT not us and what HE DID is what saved us. What we do FOR HIM is not to accomplish or complete what HE DID for us as that is FINISHED and cannot be added unto. What we do FOR HIM has an entirely different motive and goal that getting to heaven as it is what Christ did FOR US that accomplished that goal already (Jn. 5:24) and that is precisely why NOW we already have eternal life and shall not perish (Jn. 3:16; 5:24; 6:37-40; 10:28-30; etc.).

What we do FOR HIM is motivated in love not fear. What we do FOR HIM is not to gain heaven but to save or lose our daily life for the glory of God (Eph. 5:17-18) or make it count for His glory. To make future salvation the present experience in our daily life according to the measure we walk in the Spirit. To experience fullness of joy, usefulness, growth and future rewards. To avoid the present "loss" of these things on a daily basis as well as "loss" of eternal rewards in heaven (1 Cor. 3:11-15). To avoid the chastening hand of the love of God on his children. We are no longer "enemies" of God but children and children of God can no more be unborn than your own children. Sin robs them of fellowship and present blessings (I Jn. 1:4-7) not relationship as that is eternal.

However, not all who profess possess (1 Jn. 2:19) and "good works" are the only visible manifestations in the court of human observation that can "shew" whether ones profession of faith is genuine or false (James 2:14-26).

 

Just as you admit there are essentials for a person to be a child of God and to be recognized as such so there are essentials for any group of professed beleivers to be a true New Testament congregation and be recognized as such.

 

I use the term "Romanist" to describe the basic union between soteriology and ecclesiology which I believe finds it source of origin not in the Bible but in the Roman Catholic heresy. The Reformed Catholic churches and the Orthodox and Anglican churches, as well as all sacramentarians are "Romanist" in this sense as far as I am concerned.

 

Let me see if I understand you correctly. You define "Romanist" as a theological system which combines its soteriology with its ecclesiology. So, according to you there is no connection between salvation and the church to be found in scriptures. Is this what you are saying?

 

That is precisely what I am saying. The "New Testament" church is by definition "new Testament" in regard to its dispensational administrative origin as demonstrated by its builder (Mt. 16:18) its "foundation" (Ephes. 2:20) and those first "set" in the church (1 Cor. 12:28).

Salvation is not restricted to New Testament "dispensational adminstrative origin" as it is in effect since Eden (Acts 10:43) as demonstrated by the fact that the role model and example for "ALL" true children of God is found in the Pre-law dispensational Abraham (Gal. 3:6-17; Rom. 4) and same gospel (Heb. 4:2) and same Savior (Jn. 14:6) and same "way" (Mt. 7:13-14; Acts 4:12) before and after Calvary.

Furthermore, the "body" of Christ is New Testament in origin but the "kingdom of God" is pre-cross in origin and existence (Jn. 3:3-5).

Sacramentalism confuse the kingdom with the church of God. The former consists of all of God's elect in the world (Mt. 13) while the latter is the administrative institution in the kingdom where the keys of the kingdom are found (Mt. 18:17-18) and thus the visible representative of the kingdom on earth.

Rome has confused the two combining the church and kingdom together and thus confused salvation with service in a church/salvation monstosity.

The gospel is for salvation but the New Testament congregation is for the saved to serve.