the ONLY Law that we have still remaining under New Covenant are the "Moral Ones" coded in 10 Commandments, and Jesus kept them for us, so we can live in the HS enabling, as He will power up to keep them in sense not commiting them!
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What Did John mean By "Keeping the Commandments?"
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
the ONLY Law that we have still remaining under New Covenant are the "Moral Ones" coded in 10 Commandments, and Jesus kept them for us, so we can live in the HS enabling, as He will power up to keep them in sense not commiting them!
freeatlast
New Member
You are rambling, but if I understand you that is type of the false teaching of Gnosticism which John speaks against.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.
If someone needs the law as a principle of life then they are still in the flesh.
1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrineThose who are Christ's walk by faith led of the Spirit.
Galatians 5
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
The Just shall live by faith.
If a person is walking in the Spirit with the law of agape-love as a life principle infused by the new birth, that person will do his neighbor no harm, won't lust for his possessions, spouse, lie, cheat, steal, etc...
1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails.2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
NKJV 1 Corinthians 13:13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
HankD
freeatlast
New Member
So let me ask this. Are you saying that if someone gets saved and after that they never read a bible or hear about what is sin they will automatically walk in the way of the Lord. (Not break the commands)?
Notice "love"
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Are you saying a person can keep them wihtout knowing them?
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Does NOT mean that a true believer will not commit sin, nor that he cannot be ever more tempted, not that at times might fall into sin for a season though!
DOES mean that a Christian has a permanent relationship through the Cross/Christ to the father, have the scriptures and HS given as means to enable to live overcoming lives, but when/if we commit sin..
One we confess/repent of that sin, God is faithfil to cleanse and restore us, based upon NOT our deed, but upon the Cross!
The reason they were saved is they heard from the Spirit concerning their sin (reproval-conviction) and called upon the Lord.
If they wander from the path then they will be responding to the flesh.
Then they will either receive correction or reap of the flesh.
Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
HankD
HankD
For we cannot live insinless perfection, but the Lord does save us to do good works in His name, and gives us the HS to enable us to overcome our flesh!
But that is not what those two verses teach.
The Pharisees and lawyers came to Jesus and asked him: What is the greatest of all the commandments (meaning the Ten Commandments).
The Ten Commandments are divided into two parts. There are four that deal with our relationship with God and three that deal with our relationship with man. This is what the Lord was referring to.
Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? (Matthew 22:35-36)
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. (Matthew 22:37-38)
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (Matthew 22:39-40)
No man can keep either one of these commandments perfectly.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:10)
If you say you keep these commands you only condemn yourself: you deceive yourself; the truth is not in you; you make Christ a liar, and his word is not in you.
Do you love the Lord with all your heart, soul, and mind, all the time? Is this even a possibility for any man? Here is what Paul said about the mind:
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; (2 Corinthians 10:5)
Do you cast down every imagination; bring into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ? Really? All the time?
Do you love the Lord with all your heart? your strength? Serving him every moment of the day? Really?
What about the second command?
Love thy neighbor as yourself. Remember the story of the Good Samaritan. That was in answer to the question: "Who is my neighbor?"
Your neighbor is the world and all those that are in it.
If you loved them you would be a missionary to the neediest nation on this earth, lay down your life and go that nation and seek to give the gospel to as many as possible before they die and go to hell. Love your neighbor as yourself. You live in luxury compared to the rest of the world. Give up your luxury and go live like the rest of the world that they too might hear the gospel. Love your neighbor as yourself. Can you honestly obey that command?
freeatlast
New Member
That passage is contrasting a lost person with a saved person not a saved person living in sin.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God
No it isn't FAL it is written to the Christians at Rome "YE".
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
We have already been through "doth no commit sin" more than once.
If we con tinue serving the flesh ans are unrepentant as Paul tells the Romans "ye shall die" - the sin unto death.
Otherwise 1 John 1:9:
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
We - children of God
Confess - ackowledge - present tense
our sins - plural not "The sin"
1 Corinthians 11
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
A Christian, even a babe on Christ, cannot continue in sin and will result in chastisement and may even result in the loss of their physical life.
Hebrews 12
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives.
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?
8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?
8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.
HankD
freeatlast
New Member
No Romans is a contrast. Also you are incorrect about the ICOR. passage and the table. The context of the passage is not speaking simply about if a person has some sin in their life. It is speaking about the motive of taking the table. They were dishonoring the table by how they took of it. Look at the context. They were being greedy and using what some would call a love feast for the table and gobbling up the food before the poor could eat. They were taking the table in an unworthy manner and because of that God was striking some sick and even dead. This is not about practicing sin because we know those who do that are lost.
The Hebrews passage is not talking about someone who practices sin. It is not even talking about punishment in the strictest sense. It is talking about being trained and all that is involved. If someone practices sin they are lost. That includes someone who claims to be a new believer.
Just believe what it written and stop trying to make up exceptions;
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God
I am not making exceptions someone who is "practicing sin" and a sinning Christian are ususally two different things. If a Christian rebels (this usually takes the form of ignoring the warnings) then the Lord can and will take them home.
That does not mean that every Christian that has an untimley or difficult death is being chastised.
Unless a person is sinless in their walk before Christ they need to pay attention to what the Lord is saying through His word.
Christians are capable of terrible sins against God and their brethren.
Take these Christians as those who were "committing" sin:
Revelation 2
19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Also in Corinth
20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
1 Corinthians 11
20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
Coming to fellowship drunk is not a sin?
Also, no matter what the offense is, it means having done so, coming to the Lord's Table unworthily ends in chastisement and rebuke. Call it what you will, it is a sin.
It works the other way also, if a person uses/flaunts a liberty (something not sinful in of itself) and troubles a young Christian (or are too harsh) that person not only sins against his brother but sins against Christ
1 Corinthians 8
9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
I understand your concern.
Personally, I am aware that you have a sincere zeal for your Lord..
Personally, I am aware that you have a sincere zeal for your Lord..
But...
Those in the church who lead and counsel will answer for their counsel.
And I certainly understand that this includes me.
And I certainly understand that this includes me.
So FAL, If its immediately evident, I don't try to figure out the specific standing of a "christian" and try to disect/discern between "continously sinning" or occasional sins of those who come with a problem. The tares can be mistaken for the wheat and vice versa. All sin is displeasing to God.
There are so many sins of the flesh that modern Christians dismiss as minor it is no wonder that more don't "sleep".
It is not ours to throw them into the lake of fire but be the agent by which the Lord rescues them from the lake of fire or impending chastisement.
It is not ours to throw them into the lake of fire but be the agent by which the Lord rescues them from the lake of fire or impending chastisement.
so here FWIW is my advice to any who want to listen:
Certain qualities are required ;
2 Timothy 2
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
HankD
Galatians 6:1 shows Christians can be overtaken by sin.
Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
Paul is speaking of fellow Christians who have not simply sinned, but are "overtaken in a fault". They are living in continuous sin. Paul tells Christians which are spiritual to "restore" such a fellow believer in the spirit of meekness. We are not to be overly harsh or judgmental. It says we should beware of being overly confident of our own superiority and spirituality, lest we also fall into temptation, implying that we could also be overtaken in sin.
Prov 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
The moment you think you are better than others, the moment you fall and prove to yourself you aren't.
Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
Paul is speaking of fellow Christians who have not simply sinned, but are "overtaken in a fault". They are living in continuous sin. Paul tells Christians which are spiritual to "restore" such a fellow believer in the spirit of meekness. We are not to be overly harsh or judgmental. It says we should beware of being overly confident of our own superiority and spirituality, lest we also fall into temptation, implying that we could also be overtaken in sin.
Prov 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
The moment you think you are better than others, the moment you fall and prove to yourself you aren't.
freeatlast
New Member
The passage does not say what you says it says. We know they are not living in sin because if 1John 2 as well as 3. The Greek word translated fault is not the normal word for sin. That is why it is translated fault. They are having trouble with a particular issue in their life but they are not living in sin.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.
According to Strong's, the word fault is paraptoma, and is translated as "trespass" 9 times, "offense" 7 times, "sin" 3 times, "fall" 2 times, and "fault" 2 times.
Galatians 6:1 is speaking of sin.
beameup
Member
Stick to Paul and you can't go wrong if you are a Gentile in the Church Age.
Much of the N.T. is addressed to a sect of Judaism known as the Nazarenes
before the "split" was yet complete between Judiasm and Gentile Christianity.
And these "Hebrew" portions of the N.T. will also be very applicable during the
Tribulation following the completion of the Dispensation of Grace (Bride of Christ).
freeatlast
New Member
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.
FAL, part of righteous behavior (practising righteousness) is confessing/acknowledging when we do sin.
We must have a balance.
If we do this then we are practicing righteousness and not practising sin because it is the Holy Spirit in us who reproves and prompts us to turn from that which displeases Him.
No lost person departs from their sin. Even if they "give it up" it is to avoid retribution and not the love of our father in heaven.
However , if we as the sons of God continue on in the same sin of which we are being reproved then we are heading for the woodshed with our father.
The ultimate test is not to try to discern between continuing sin and "punctiliar sin" as it is not always evident:
http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/terms.htm#VERB
Sin can and does happen to Christians without them being in a continuous state of sinning.
1 john 1
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1 John 2
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1 Corinthians 11
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
This is the test:
NKJV Hebrews 12
5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: "My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives."
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?
8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives."
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?
8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.
FAL, what happens if we are not careful about this doctrine is that it will lead others astray either into legalism or on the other end of the spectrum licentiousness.
The balance is certainly not to give people a license to sin but a scriptural means that when sin does happen to acknowledge it, receive strength from the Lord, put it behind them and return to walking in the Spirit.
Otherwise face the consequence.
HankD
freeatlast
New Member
I understand what you are saying, but this is what is true;
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God
FAL, I have never seen someone take so much time and patience as Hank has with you. He has given you one Biblical answer after another. It seems that you disregard what the totality of what the Bible says in preference for a couple of verses in John's first epistle. Does it not occur to you that if the rest of the Bible contradicts with that which is written in 1John, the the passage in 1John means something different than what you believe it means, and that is the source of all your problems?