State of the SBC

[SolaSaint]

What is the state of the SBC? Are there more liberal churches now than conservative. I have experienced this in Missouri over the past 12 years. We have visited several churches and at least half of them preach and teach a seeker sensitive style. I've even been to one where a Sunday School class taught pro-choice. Another reminded me of the Methodist church I grew up in where the worship service was 3-4 chior songs then a short 15 min. sermon about a few nice personal stories and go do likewise, no comments on scripture at all. I was just wondering about the rest of the nation, where are we at spiritually? Has the SBC just become another scripturally weak denomination? Is Al Mohler all we have and is he even paid attention to by many? Where are the good ole days with strong men of faith leading the church?

 

[preachinjesus]

From my perspective things are great!

 

[12strings]

I would have to say it's still a mixed bag. The conservative resurgence (80's) was primarily aimed at denominational leadership and the Seminaries. So that did not necessarily bring back individual churches from moderate/liberal leanings. I do think there have been some churches that have since gotten new pastors, who were trained at these newly conservative seminaries, and so may have been brought back from that kind of thinking. However there are still many SBC churches that remain SBC, but just don't agree with the Mohlerites.

There are also likely many who have adopted seeker-driven philosophies of ministry, while still claiming adherence to fundamentals of the faith. Some have said that now that the battle for innerrancy has been fought in the SBC, we need to focus on the sufficiency of Scripture, since we don't seem to believe it works, and are trying to prop it up with other gimmicks.

As for right now, (and the following is total hearsay): It seems that Southern Seminary and Southeastern are the strongest, perhaps followed by Southwestern. I have not heard anything about Golden gate Seminary, but have heard negative things about New Orleans and Mid-western, that they are simply not very good. I think some of the colleges might be Ok, but I've heard iffy things about others.

I am personally at what I believe to be a fairly solid SBC church in southern Indiana, and the churches around this area that are SBC are for the most part theologically solid, even if some methods vary. This may be unusual, however, since we are in the radius of Southern Seminary in Louisville, and I know that people from southern (myself included) have a big influence on the churches in Louisville and surrounding areas.

As to Missouri, my pastor actually enrolled in a Doctor of Ministry Degree there, went out to the first one-week session of classes, and was so turned off by it that he left early, came home, withdrew his application...and ended up enrolling in SBTS instead. He says there is no comparison.

 

[Ruiz]

What is the state of the SBC? Are there more liberal churches now than conservative. I have experienced this in Missouri over the past 12 years. We have visited several churches and at least half of them preach and teach a seeker sensitive style. I've even been to one where a Sunday School class taught pro-choice. Another reminded me of the Methodist church I grew up in where the worship service was 3-4 chior songs then a short 15 min. sermon about a few nice personal stories and go do likewise, no comments on scripture at all. I was just wondering about the rest of the nation, where are we at spiritually? Has the SBC just become another scripturally weak denomination? Is Al Mohler all we have and is he even paid attention to by many? Where are the good ole days with strong men of faith leading the church?

I think the major seminaries are on great shape. Mohler in KY, Patterson in TX, and Aiken in NC are great men to have.

Some states are still battling liberalism, moreso than others. Texas, Virginia, and Missouri all have some issues in the state. Yet, as far as conservative and liberal, it trends rather conservative though I do believe they lean more towards pragmatism as a denomination in general, which is a branch of modernism.

 

[jaigner]

What is the state of the SBC? Are there more liberal churches now than conservative. Where are the good ole days with strong men of faith leading the church?

Most of them are conservative/fundie. Most of the others have left the SBC.

And what strong men of faith are you referring to? A lot of them were racists, bigots and liars.

 

[nodak]

I'm conservative.

But the SBC I knew and loved died years ago.

I tend more to E Y Mullins and Herschel Hobbs than Mohler.

I still believe in soul sufficiency.

I still believe in winning the lost rather than building up the numbers of the church.

So to me, the SBC no longer exists. Not the one I used to love.

BUT there are still creditably good churches within it, and we found one.

We looked a long time. May take you quite a while to find one that fits.

My parents were UMC, and we didn't get those pablum services described. We got massive doses of Bible and doctrine. In some parts of the country the UMC is doing that and thriving. In the pablum areas it is dying off.

 

[quantumfaith]

I am unclear as exactly what a "seeker" type church might be. Could someone help me with a clear and precise definition. I see the term often on BB, not sure if I can identify it.

 

[Crabtownboy]

I agree with Nodak. The SBC I knew and loved died years ago. Currently the SBC is Baptist in name only.

 

[12strings]

I agree with Nodak. The SBC I knew and loved died years ago. Currently the SBC is Baptist in name only.

What does this even mean?


Also, for us dummies, can someone explain what "Soul Sufficiency" means?

 

[Crabtownboy]

What does this even mean?

Basically it means for me that those who took over teh leadership of the SBC introduced and rammed through the annual Convention policies that violated most of what I was taught in how Christ wanted us to live our lives and treat others; i.e. with tolerance, gentleness and ethically.

They have treated those with whom they do not agree, professors and missionaries, very badly and they have interfered with others Christian missionary work in Europe. I expect in Asia also, but I know more about Europe having lived there off and on for 6 years. They, basically, have bribed or attempted to bribe Central and European Baptist preachers. Bribe in the sense of taking them to expensive hotel for several days of meetings and then put pressure on them to begin acting like current American SBC'ers pushing their agenda.

When I was in Moscow working at the seminary there one summer a Russian Baptist pastor said to me, "My church has just about recovered from the damage done by the last American Baptist group who came to 'help'.

To me the current leadership of the SBC are liberal in the sense that they take liberties with scripture, quoting proof texts to prove their point while ignoring other scripture to that would weaken their stance point. Also, to me, their actions in the way they have treated missionaries, professors and others who did not totally agree is unchristian ... IMHO.

There is more, but you get my drift.

 

[mandym]

There is more, but you get my drift.

Sure we do. It did not go your way so you feel the need to gossip and slander because you have nothing else.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Sure we do. It did not go your way so you feel the need to gossip and slander because you have nothing else.

No gossip. I have the information from pastors it happened to in Europe and Russia.

Do you know what the International Missions Board did to missionaries that did not completely agree with the new administration? If not I suggest you find a few of them and ask. Then you will have first hand information.

As I said the SBC is Baptist in name only. The convention gave up being Baptist years ago.

You gave your opinion but certainly nothing to back it up.

 

[Havensdad]

Basically it means for me that those who took over teh leadership of the SBC introduced and rammed through the annual Convention policies that violated most of what I was taught in how Christ wanted us to live our lives and treat others; i.e. with tolerance, gentleness and ethically.

They have treated those with whom they do not agree, professors and missionaries, very badly and they have interfered with others Christian missionary work in Europe. I expect in Asia also, but I know more about Europe having lived there off and on for 6 years. They, basically, have bribed or attempted to bribe Central and European Baptist preachers. Bribe in the sense of taking them to expensive hotel for several days of meetings and then put pressure on them to begin acting like current American SBC'ers pushing their agenda.

When I was in Moscow working at the seminary there one summer a Russian Baptist pastor said to me, "My church has just about recovered from the damage done by the last American Baptist group who came to 'help'.

To me the current leadership of the SBC are liberal in the sense that they take liberties with scripture, quoting proof texts to prove their point while ignoring other scripture to that would weaken their stance point. Also, to me, their actions in the way they have treated missionaries, professors and others who did not totally agree is unchristian ... IMHO.

There is more, but you get my drift.

Wow. This did not surprise me at all. A liberal whining that men of God threw the wolves that were devastating the sheep, out of the pen. Well, get over it my friend. The true Gospel of Christ will continue to conquer.

The current state of the SBC is fairly good, and getting better. We have a few liberal hold outs, that manage to propogate some silliness (such as the seeker sensitive garbage, or the Emergent Church heresy), but all in all I think the situation is improving, and has been since the Christ denying, Scripture ignoring Liberal (I am speaking in terms of theology) people were tossed out.

The Oldest Baptists had creeds and confessions. The Oldest Baptists believed in a literal interpretation of an INFALLIBLE scripture. That is Baptist. You cannot reinvent the term, Crabby, and then whine when Bible Believers do not adhere to your new definition.

 

[Salty]

... As I said the SBC is Baptist in name only. The convention gave up being Baptist years ago. ...

Just curious, did you work with the International Baptist Convention while in Europe? Would you say the IBC is more "Baptist" then the SBC? other thoughts?

 

[Crabtownboy]

Just curious, did you work with the International Baptist Convention while in Europe? Would you say the IBC is more "Baptist" then the SBC? other thoughts?

Salty, no. In fact, I had not heard the term International Missions Convention before your post. I have been in the International Baptist Church in Prague attending a worship service and another time a concert. They may be part of the IBC, but I am not sure. I can make no judgement on the IBC. If the International Church in Prague is a part of that IBC then I have met a few of their staff members and found them to be good people and, yes, I would consider them Baptist. I would say this church staff is more Baptist than the SBC in that they realize that to grow a church in Europe you do not attempt to replicate a Stateside Baptist church. The culture is different, the problems are different and, frankly, since 2001, they Europeans I have met and know have no desire to be like Americans, or their, in my opinion, mistaken view of America.

http://www.ibcp.cz/

I am much more familiar with the European Baptist Federation (EBF) as they have rent office space at the International Baptist Theological Seminary where my wife and I have worked as volunteers for varying lengths of time the last six years. I know the current EBF General Secretary very well and the small staff that works in the IBTS facility. The EBF is much more like the SBC when I was a kid growing up in rural Virginia. They are much more tolerant of differences between Baptist groups. They have to be as cultures differ from country to country and it simply would be very unwise to try to force all into the same pigeonhole.
http://www.ebf.org/


I am also familiar with the Northumbia Community and have great respect for them. They have a close relationship with IBTS.
http://www.northumbriacommunity.org/

http://www.ibts.eu/

I did meet six or eight SBC missionaries last year in Prague and in talking to them several days during breakfast I saw what I hope is light at the end of the tunnel. These folk were very friendly, very open to us at IBTS and were far more interested in taking Christ to the people than in being SBC correct IMHO. My feeling is that the problems I see in the SBC are not the work and file missionaries, but the top officials in the convention, seminaries and boards.

 

[Salty]

Crabby,

Thanks for the reply. When I was in Germany, our church was part of the European Baptist Convention (now the IBC)

I am sure that IBC Prague is in the IBC. If you click on "churches" at the above link, you should be able to find it. (my computer is acting up, so I cant get an exact link)

Other then attending our local church, Zweibruecken Bapt (later First Bapt of Contwig) and visiting our "mother church" Faith Baptist, Kaiserslautern, I was not involved in the EBC at all. Though in 1973, I did organize an areal wide youth rally which was held in "K-Town" at Faith. We had about 250 teens from thurout Central Germany attend. It was a great blessing that evening.

If I may, I would like to see an IBC church in action, tune in 11 am Central European Time (about 5 am EST) for the morning worship service of Faith Baptist. What a great way to start Sunday morning.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Crabby,

Thanks for the reply. When I was in Germany, our church was part of the European Baptist Convention (now the IBC)

I am sure that IBC Prague is in the IBC. If you click on "churches" at the above link, you should be able to find it. (my computer is acting up, so I cant get an exact link)

Salty, I went to the IBC web site. When I clicked on "churches" it would not take me there. I may try again another day.

Other then attending our local church, Zweibruecken Bapt (later First Bapt of Contwig) and visiting our "mother church" Faith Baptist, Kaiserslautern, I was not involved in the EBC at all. Though in 1973, I did organize an areal wide youth rally which was held in "K-Town" at Faith. We had about 250 teens from thurout Central Germany attend. It was a great blessing that evening.

That must have been a very interesting evening. Wish I had been there.

If I may, I would like to see an IBC church in action, tune in 11 am Central European Time (about 5 am EST) for the morning worship service of Faith Baptist. What a great way to start Sunday morning.

I don't know if any Baptist church in Europe streams their semons. That would be interesting.

Did you by chance visit the Baptist seminary in Ruschlikon, Switzerand. Ruschlikon became IBTS when it moved to Prague in the mid 1990's. From photos I have seen it must have been a very beautiful campus in a beautiful location.

 

[Salty]

Did you by chance visit the Baptist seminary in Ruschlikon, Switzerand. Ruschlikon became IBTS when it moved to Prague in the mid 1990's. From photos I have seen it must have been a very beautiful campus in a beautiful location.

No, never left Germany the whole time I was there the first time

 

[govteach51]

I'm conservative.

But the SBC I knew and loved died years ago.

I tend more to E Y Mullins and Herschel Hobbs than Mohler.

I still believe in soul sufficiency.

I still believe in winning the lost rather than building up the numbers of the church.

So to me, the SBC no longer exists. Not the one I used to love.

BUT there are still creditably good churches within it, and we found one.

We looked a long time. May take you quite a while to find one that fits.

My parents were UMC, and we didn't get those pablum services described. We got massive doses of Bible and doctrine. In some parts of the country the UMC is doing that and thriving. In the pablum areas it is dying off.

Good post....We somehow have lost the priesthood of the believer and missionary spirit both here and in foreign lands. There are too many ministers who are now dictators and not pastors. Too many young ministers coming out of seminary without a sense of humility. The sermons have no "meat." There is no real teaching from the pulpit as in the past. We are more concerned with building gyms and playing volleyball on Sunday evenings than having worship services. ( Don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with after church fellowship, just not skipping church to play ball on a regular basis.) The music has gotten bad, it is all modern, 3-4 chord, hypnotic, played over, and over and over again.

 

[SolaSaint]

Most of them are conservative/fundie. Most of the others have left the SBC.

And what strong men of faith are you referring to? A lot of them were racists, bigots and liars.

Wow!! Those are really words we shouldn't use as Christians are they? I guess I should have been more specific with whom I was referring to--like Adrain Rogers, W A Criswell, Billy Graham.