Must all true fandamentalisls be Non-Calvinistic? Yes

[seekingthetruth]

How useless Christ musta felt hanging on the cross knowing what He was dieing for was dependent on fallen worlds recognizing his efforts & either accepting or rejecting Him......musta felt pretty inept.

Herein is the heart of the argument.

Did Christ die for everyone (whosoever) that will come? Or did He just die for the "predestined elect"?

And shame on you for saying that. Salvation is dependent on either accepting Him or rejecting Him. If we don't have a choice then why did He die at all? God didn't need to shed the Blood of Jesus for Him to save us. Jesus did it for our benefit, not God's.

John

 

[Don]

Here's the problem: there isn't "one type" of calvinist.

Within calvinism, you have sub-sets: those that ascribe to lapsanarianism, which also has subsets ranging from supra to ante and infra to post; 4-point calvinists; neo-orthodox; neo-calvinists; hyper-calvinists...and I'm sure there's one or two others; and each of those has sub-sets within them regarding certain points.

You ask why a calvinist would be a missionary? A hyper-calvinist would not, because he would be exactly as you describe: someone who believes that God will save all who will be saved. A typical calvinist, however, says that we have no idea who God has pre-ordained, and that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word; so therefore, go out an preach, and rejoice when God saves those He has chosen.

It's like using "fundamentalist" to describe terrorists. Most terrorists may be fundamentalists; but by no means are all or even most fundamentalists terrorists. These kind of logic errors lead to misunderstanding, which causes dissension and strife.

The reason the labels are causing such a fuss is because there is a tendency to lump all calvinists into one group, and all "non-cals" into another group, without regard for specific beliefs; thus causing the error of generalization. Tying that back to my opening paragraph: the reason we make the generalization error is because we don't know that there are different beliefs within an overall grouping, so we make assumptions about certain people based on the label. Like hearing that someone is a fundamentalist, and automatically thinking, "oh, another Timothy McVeigh."

Someone asked in another thread about non-cal authors, with no regard for the multitude of different types of beliefs that range from arminian to lutheran to pelagian, etc. Here on this thread, we see people talking about calvinists with no regard for whether the calvinist in question is lapsanarian, or neo-calvinist, etc.

So, my suggestion? Lose the labels, talk the theology.

 

[Don]

Yea....just like you were predestined to loose your business :laugh:

That was a pretty cheap shot. "Shameful" comes to mind. I pray that when something life-shattering happens to you, I don't talk about it in such a fashion and follow it with laughter.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That was a pretty cheap shot. "Shameful" comes to mind. I pray that when something life-shattering happens to you, I don't talk about it in such a fashion and follow it with laughter.

Ahhhh......how nice of you....what a sport :laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Herein is the heart of the argument.

Did Christ die for everyone (whosoever) that will come? Or did He just die for the "predestined elect"?

And shame on you for saying that. Salvation is dependent on either accepting Him or rejecting Him. If we don't have a choice then why did He die at all? God didn't need to shed the Blood of Jesus for Him to save us. Jesus did it for our benefit, not God's.

John

Who told you you dont have a choice.....see you do not understand Calvinism so you throw rocks at it....shame on you for your judgmental nature. Try reading the book "Doctrines of Grace" by James Montgomery Boice. Then maybe you could say you studied Calvinism to some extent instead of being clueless.

 

[Don]

Ahhhh......how nice of you....what a sport :laugh::laugh::laugh:

You want to laugh at someone's personal problems...well, that's a comment on you.

We can keep the discussion about theology, or we can make vicious personal attacks.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You want to laugh at someone's personal problems...well, that's a comment on you.

We can keep the discussion about theology, or we can make vicious personal attacks.

Ohhhh your tooo much! OK Dudley Do Right.....you choose? :laugh:

 

[Amy.G]

Ahhhh......how nice of you....what a sport :laugh::laugh::laugh:

EWF, I've been reading your posts for a long time and I know you have had some real tragedies in your life. I would never make light of them and certainly would not use them to make a theological point followed by a laughing icon. Regardless of our differences, we should treat one another better than that, don't you think?

 

[Don]

Ohhhh your tooo much! OK Dudley Do Right.....you choose? :laugh:

Read post #62 and let me know what you think.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Herein is the heart of the argument.

Did Christ die for everyone (whomsoever) that will come? Or did He just die for the "predestined elect"?

Both of those. John 6:37.

Steve

 

[seekingthetruth]

Both of those. John 6:37.

Steve

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Again, read the entire text here. Jesus had just fed the multitude of jews with a few fishes and loaves. Jesus was afraid they would try to take Him by force so He and the disciples fled.

When the jews followed and asked Him why he left He said in ver 6:26,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. "

They wanted to follow Jesus because they wanted more food, not because they believed He was the Messiah. This was Jesus's way of telling them that the Jewish people would see Him but still not believe. Not just the individuals present, but the whole race.

In verse 37 Jesus says: "Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. . He is still talking about complete races/gentiles here. He is saying that Isreal will reject Him but He will recieve whatever race of people God gives to Him.

These passages in no way allude to individual salvation.

Read the rest of the chapter especially verse 40

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This verse tells us much about the mission of Jesus. That there is not any secret decree of election. The will of the Father applies to every one who believes upon the Son.

John

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

EWF, I've been reading your posts for a long time and I know you have had some real tragedies in your life. I would never make light of them and certainly would not use them to make a theological point followed by a laughing icon. Regardless of our differences, we should treat one another better than that, don't you think?

Yes & I apologize. sometimes this topic just makes enemies of us & I get mean spirited about it.

 

[preacher4truth]

Yes & I apologize. sometimes this topic just makes enemies of us & I get mean spirited about it.

:thumbsup:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Read post #62 and let me know what you think.

Don....your battle is not with most Calvinist, but rather with "Fatalists" . Here is what most Calvinists support....

Predestination is always about *people* not *events*. Notice the words "we" "us" "whom" and "brethren" in scriptures pertaining to Predestination (Eph 1:11-12, 1:3-6 & Romans 8:29). This is a huge point and please do not miss it. God did not predestine all things that transpire but He predestined all whom He foreknew. And here is where people really get confused. Some say that God predestined everything we do, even the sin that we commit. Now, THAT would make us mindless robots and would make God the author of sin.Now, there are some things God “decreed” to happen when they did (as the first and second coming of Jesus) but that is a completely different subject. Predestination is only concerned with the destiny of the elect. So, just leave it right there, cause that’s where it belongs.:godisgood:

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Again, read the entire text here. Jesus had just fed the multitude of jews with a few fishes and loaves. Jesus was afraid they would try to take Him by force so He and the disciples fled.

When the jews followed and asked Him why he left He said in ver 6:26,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. "

They wanted to follow Jesus because they wanted more food, not because they believed He was the Messiah. This was Jesus's way of telling them that the Jewish people would see Him but still not believe. Not just the individuals present, but the whole race.

In verse 37 Jesus says: "Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. . He is still talking about complete races/gentiles here. He is saying that Isreal will reject Him but He will recieve whatever race of people God gives to Him.

These passages in no way allude to individual salvation.

Read the rest of the chapter especially verse 40

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This verse tells us much about the mission of Jesus. That there is not any secret decree of election. The will of the Father applies to every one who believes upon the Son.

John

You have not provided any evidence that the Lord Jesus is talking about races or nations here. I cannot see that in the text. He is simply talking to the people who were around Him, and by extension to us who read His word. Also, verse 40 has to be taken together with verse 39. 'And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of all that He has given Me, but raise them up on the last day.' This is saying just the same thing as verse 37. The Father has given the Son a people to redeem and He will redeem every single one of them (cf. also John 10:14-15; 17:2, 6).

This in no way negates verse 40. Everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life. We can and should preach to all men that if they will only trust in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation, He will by no means turn them away. However, the ones who come will be those whom the Father has loved with an everlasting love and drawn to Himself with lovingkindnes (Jer 31:3; John 6:44).

Steve

 

[Amy.G]

I think Jesus is simply saying that God the Father has given Him authority over all humanity to offer them salvation. And that both the Son and the Father work as one.

Verse 40 makes it clear that salvation is offered to all.

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

 

[Amy.G]

Yes & I apologize. sometimes this topic just makes enemies of us & I get mean spirited about it.

Accepted. :godisgood:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I think Jesus is simply saying that God the Father has given Him authority over all humanity to offer them salvation. And that both the Son and the Father work as one.

Verse 40 makes it clear that salvation is offered to all.

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Yea then he clarified it in 44....No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. What do you suppose that means....

Also....see below "Were it not .....statement"

 

[seekingthetruth]

I think Jesus is simply saying that God the Father has given Him authority over all humanity to offer them salvation. And that both the Son and the Father work as one.

Verse 40 makes it clear that salvation is offered to all.

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Exactly Amy, Jesus is not talking about the people present, He is talking about the whole nation of Isreal rejecting Him. The nation of Isreal will reject Him but the Father will give Him other nations that will recieve Him.

In verse 39, what is "it". Is He refering to the people, the jews as "it"? No, He is refering to a nation that will He will raise.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John

 

[seekingthetruth]

Yea then he clarified it in 44....No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. What do you suppose that means....

Also....see below "Were it not .....statement"

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Ok, just because God is not drawing him AT THIS TIME, does that mean he will never draw Him?

How many people do you know that resisted and voiced unbelief before they were drawn and were saved?

This verse is NOT validation for Calvinism.

Read on to verse 47

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Jesus has not dismissed, or left anyone out here. He says "he" that believeth in me, not "the chosen" who believeth in me.

Salvation requires the human will to come to Christ AND the drawing of the HS.

John