Romans 11:24

[kyredneck]

For if thou wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? Ro 11:24

What does 'their own olive tree' signify?

I say it simply represents the kingdom of God, which is here, now.

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mt 21:43

28 There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves cast forth without.
29 And they shall come from the east and west, and from the north and south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. Lu 13

11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:
12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8

 

[Luke2427]

For if thou wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? Ro 11:24

What does 'their own olive tree' signify?

I say it simply represents the kingdom of God, which is here, now.

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mt 22:43

28 There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves cast forth without.
29 And they shall come from the east and west, and from the north and south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. Lu 13

11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:
12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8

Exactly.

Time and time again you impress me with your God gifted analytical skills.

 

[Dr. Walter]

For if thou wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? Ro 11:24

What does 'their own olive tree' signify?

I say it simply represents the kingdom of God, which is here, now.

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mt 22:43

28 There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves cast forth without.
29 And they shall come from the east and west, and from the north and south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. Lu 13

11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:
12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8

First, nowhere in Romans 9-11 does Paul refer to the "kingdom of God". Second, there are TWO olive trees not just one. Third, you can be broken off and grafted back "again" into this olive tree.

This may be true of the PROFESSING KINGDOM of God on earth but it certainly is not true of the SPIRITUAL KINGDOM OF GOD on earth. There is no cutting off from the SPIRITUAL kingdom of God and then being grafted back "again."

National Israel was part of the PROFESSING KINGDOM of God on earth as they were the MANIFEST kingdom of God. However, when they were rejected the MANIFEST kingdom of God was moved from national Israel to the Gentile nations.

 

[kyredneck]

First, nowhere in Romans 9-11 does Paul refer to the "kingdom of God". Second, there are TWO olive trees not just one. Third, you can be broken off and grafted back "again" into this olive tree.

This may be true of the PROFESSING KINGDOM of God on earth but it certainly is not true of the SPIRITUAL KINGDOM OF GOD on earth. There is no cutting off from the SPIRITUAL kingdom of God and then being grafted back "again."

National Israel was part of the PROFESSING KINGDOM of God on earth as they were the MANIFEST kingdom of God. However, when they were rejected the MANIFEST kingdom of God was moved from national Israel to the Gentile nations.

Typical manmade dispensational fragmentation and catagorizing, and just all in all making the simple complex. To complicate the simple, it seems that's the dispensationalist's goal.

Provide some scripture as I did that illuminates your position?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Typical manmade dispensational fragmentation and catagorizing, and just all in all making the simple complex. To complicate the simple, it seems that's the dispensationalist's goal.

Provide some scripture as I did that illuminates your position?

Typical hot air response without any substance to disprove what I said. Do you believe that true children of God can be lost and be resaved? If not, then you cannot possibly interpret the olive tree to be the true spiritual kingdom of God. You are entitled to your opinion but not your facts.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Provide some scripture as I did that illuminates your position?

You provided sufficient scripture to disprove your own theory. How can the true spiritual kingdom be taken or given to anyone as it belongs to God! He is talking about the "keys" of the kingdom or the administrative authority within the PROFESSING or MANIFEST kingdom of God.

How can the true "seed" of the kingdom be removed out of the spiritual kingdom and then be brought back again? Do you believe in a saved, lost, saved scenario? If not, then he is not talking about the true spiritual kingdom but the manifest kingdom.

 

[Luke2427]

Typical hot air response without any substance to disprove what I said. Do you believe that true children of God can be lost and be resaved? If not, then you cannot possibly interpret the olive tree to be the true spiritual kingdom of God. You are entitled to your opinion but not your facts.

A nation or race can be cut off by God from the spiritual Kingdom and another race or nation can be grafted in.

There is no need to believe in repeated regeneration to understand this.

That is what clearly happened.

The Kingdom of God was TAKEN from Israel and GIVEN to the Gentiles.

In other words its primary station of operation was moved.

 

[kyredneck]

Exactly.

Time and time again you impress me with your God gifted analytical skills.

Why thank sir; you too make some very good points.

 

[Amy.G]

It's referring to Israel (the natural tree) and their unbelief which has cause them to be cut out. But they will not always be in unbelief and they will once again be grafted in (by way of the New Covenant) into the natural tree.

Paul makes this clear in verses 25-27.

Rom 11
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

 

[kyredneck]

...In other words its primary station of operation was moved.

More than just 'moved', it was ceased forever. In the OP I quoted this passage:

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mt 21:43

Co9ncerning fruit, a few verse prior to that Christ cursed an olive tree for providing none:

.... Let there be no fruit from thee henceforward for ever....Mt 21:19

What do you think? Did He just arbitrarily lose His temper at this tree because it never fed Him, or was He referring to something else much more pertinent to the overall context His teaching that day, like the 'national ethnic Israel' of v 43?

When the harlot of Revelation is correctly identified, this passage fits right in:

21 And a strong angel took up a stone as it were a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with a mighty fall shall Babylon, the great city, be cast down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers and minstrels and flute-players and trumpeters shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft, shall be found any more at all in thee; and the voice of a mill shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 and the light of a lamp shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the princes of the earth; for with thy sorcery were all the nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth. Rev 18

 

[kyredneck]

It's referring to Israel (the natural tree)...

So Israel was broken off from Israel? And Israel will be grafted back into Israel? Is that what you're saying?

The question is, what does 'their own olive tree' signify?

 

[kyredneck]

You provided sufficient scripture to disprove your own theory. How can the true spiritual kingdom be taken or given to anyone as it belongs to God! He is talking about the "keys" of the kingdom or the administrative authority within the PROFESSING or MANIFEST kingdom of God.

How can the true "seed" of the kingdom be removed out of the spiritual kingdom and then be brought back again? Do you believe in a saved, lost, saved scenario? If not, then he is not talking about the true spiritual kingdom but the manifest kingdom.

If some form or semblance of an 'ethnic Israel' is grafted back in, they will be grafted back to that which they were broken off from, and that is the kingdom of God as it stands today. They will come to the Church of Christ, where we the Gentiles are, who are Israelites indeed, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Question: Where were those 'natural branches' who were NOT broken off? Where did they remain?

Answer: The Church.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Question: Where were those 'natural branches' who were NOT broken off? Where did they remain?

Answer: The Church.

Wrong! Those not broken off were the "remnant" of Israel being saved in every generation but as for the FULLNESS as a nation they are retained in blindness "until the fullness of the gentiles be come in."

 

[Dr. Walter]

If some form or semblance of an 'ethnic Israel' is grafted back in, they will be grafted back to that which they were broken off from, and that is the kingdom of God as it stands today.

"the kingdom of God as it stands today" consists of what? Lost and Saved? If only the saved then you are teaching saved, lost, saved soteriology.

 

[kyredneck]

"the kingdom of God as it stands today" consists of what? Lost and Saved? If only the saved then you are teaching saved, lost, saved soteriology.

From the OP:

There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.....Lu 13:28

....cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8:12

I expected this to develop into a discussion concerning the kingdom of God, which is fine, but, before we go any farther I need to know your interpretation of the above phrases; do you believe it is referring to an infinity of torment in the lake of fire? I don't assign eternal consequences to these phrases. I believe it's simply hyperbole in reference to the curses of Lev 26 & Dt 28 (and other places) that were to come upon national Israel for their disobedience.

 

[Dr. Walter]

From the OP:

There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.....Lu 13:28

....cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8:12

I expected this to develop into a discussion concerning the kingdom of God, which is fine, but, before we go any farther I need to know your interpretation of the above phrases; do you believe it is referring to an infinity of torment in the lake of fire? I don't assign eternal consequences to these phrases. I believe it's simply hyperbole in reference to the curses of Lev 26 & Dt 28 (and other places) that were to come upon national Israel for their disobedience.

Did not you also quote Matthew 21:44??? Why omit that above?

"More than just 'moved', it was ceased forever. In the OP I quoted this passage:

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mt 21:43"

There is a MANIFEST KINGDOM over which some are entrusted with administrative authority - "the keys" of the kingdom and to "sit in the seat of Moses." That authority can be taken from one custodian of the keys and be given to another.

 

[kyredneck]

Did not you also quote Matthew 21:44??? Why omit that above?

Because it didn't contain the phrase 'weeping & gnashing of teeth, cast into the outer darkness....... I wasn't being sneaky, I asked you a simple question, do you assign eternal consequences to the phrase, because I do not.

There is a MANIFEST KINGDOM over which some are entrusted with administrative authority - "the keys" of the kingdom and to "sit in the seat of Moses." That authority can be taken from one custodian of the keys and be given to another.

Wow, all this arises from the simple question, what does 'their own olive tree' signify?

 

[convicted1]

It's referring to Israel (the natural tree) and their unbelief which has cause them to be cut out. But they will not always be in unbelief and they will once again be grafted in (by way of the New Covenant) into the natural tree.

Paul makes this clear in verses 25-27.

Rom 11
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

Sissy, with all due respect, the Israel of the OT never did refer to Israel the nation, but rather, the twelve tribes of Israel, or Jacob's twelve sons, and their descendents. Now, as you read in the OT, you can see a few Gentiles coming into the fold, such as Ruth, who married Boaz, the g-grand mother of David, and Rahab the harlot.

Now, by Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, He has broken down the middle wall of partition, that seperated us. By Him accomplishing this, we both(Jew and Gentile) have access to the Father through Jesus Christ. Jesus is the true Israel, and we, the Church, are His body, and also part of the true Israel, Jesus. He is the Vine, and we are the branches. That is why the scripture you posted is correct: all Israel will be saved. No one who truly believes from the heart that Jesus is Lord, we be left of, or better yet, cut off. They will be grafted into the true Vine/true Israel.

 

[kyredneck]

"the kingdom of God as it stands today" consists of what?

I believe the aspect of the kingdom that's presented in the OP passages is the very same aspect of it that Christ and John the Baptist meant with their declaration “The kingdom of Heaven is at hand”, and is intended exactly as Edersheim briefly defines it here; “...it is the whole Old Testament sublimated, and the whole New Testament realised. The idea of it did not lie hidden in the Old, to be opened up in the New Testament, as did the mystery of its realisation. [a Rom. xvi 25, 26; Eph. i. 9; Col. i. 26, 27.] But this rule of heaven and Kingship of Jehovah was the very substance of the Old Testament; the object of the calling and mission of Israel; the meaning of all its ordinances, whether civil or religious;...”.

Those Jews of Christ's day were indeed 'the sons of the kingdom', it was 'their own olive tree'.

Lost and Saved? If only the saved then you are teaching saved, lost, saved soteriology.

This is confusing, I'm saying no such thing. Once again, from the OP:

There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.....Lu 13:28

....cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8:12

Do you hold these phrases to mean 'damnation in eternity', or are the phrases referring to 'temporal consequences'?

 

[Amy.G]

....cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8:12

Do you hold these phrases to mean 'damnation in eternity', or are the phrases referring to 'temporal consequences'?

Yes. It means that the "sons of the kingdom" (the Jews) who did not believe in Christ would be excluded from the kingdom. To be excluded is to be in hell. There is no "temporal" condemnation. You will either be in or you will be out for eternity.