Romans 11:24

Sorry brother, but we'll have to part ways on this one. God has promised a literal earthly kingdom to the Jews and they have yet to receive it. There is only Israel, Gentiles, and the church. Israel and the church are still 2 separate groups.

 

Romans 11 is such a rich and joyous passage of Scripture, for Jew and Gentile alike. It's a difficult thing to take a verse from this chapter without considering the larger context.

Our Lord said, "You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews" (John 4:22).

Jesus was telling His audience that the message of the Covenant of Redemption was entrusted to the Jewish nation. This important truth is helpful in understanding what Paul was writing about in Romans 11. The "nourishing root of the olive tree" (Romans 11:17 ESV) is spiritual Israel, or rather, what all of Israel was supposed to be. Israel was to be a "light of revelation to the Gentiles" (Isaiah 42:6; 49:6; 52:10; 60:3). Boaz understood this when he told Ruth, "May the LORD reward your work, and your wages be full from the LORD, the God of Israel, under whose wings you have come to seek refuge" (Ruth 2:12; emphasis mine).

In Romans 11 Paul stated a common condition for both Jew and Gentile. "They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith" (Romans 11:20 ESV). The term "broken off" in regards to unbelieving Jews has more to do with Israel's covenant relationship with God than it does with the individual. We are not to suppose that an unbelieving Jew is somehow removed from the Covenant of Redemption and can be added in at a later time. Speaking to a mixed audience of Jews and Gentiles, Paul wrote, "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins..." (Ephesians 2:1 ESV). Both Jew and Gentile alike are separated from a true relationship with God because of sin. God has always had one called-out people for His very own.

I believe Scripture clearly teaches that there is one kingdom of God, and its citizens are made so on the basis of faith alone, in Christ alone; without regard to national origin.

 

I agree.
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Excellent Herald. Good stuff. I agree. Welcome to baptistboard.

Your insight will be very helpful here. I hope you stick around for a good while and visit frequently.

 

Romans 9, 10 and 11 must all be read together and understood as a flowing consistent thought and teaching from the apostle.

1. He begins expressing his great love and desire of salvation for his fellow countrymen (Jews) and unless you believe Paul is more merciful than the God who is inspiring His words then you must conclude that is God's ultimate feeling as well.

2. He teaches that God can and does choose to use some Jews for noble purposes and others for common use. Jacob and his heredity will be used to bring redemption to the world, Esau, a firstborn Jew, was left for common use.

3. He teaches that Jews who run, will and chase after the law to attain righteousness are not attaining it, thus they are being hardened, cut off, and stumbling. BUT, they are not stumbling beyond recovery...for they may be provoked to envy and saved.

4. He teaches that the scattered nations (the unclean Gentiles), who aren't really even nations, are being shown mercy and made into a nation. They are being grafted into the tree, sent the gospel and show mercy by which they too may now enter covenant with the "God of Israel." They are attaining righteousness because they are pursuing it through faith, not the law.

5. He concludes showing that God has bound all people over to disobedience so as to show mercy to ALL.

 

I disagree, Sissy, but do so in much love. The promise was to Abraham's seed, and not seeds. If the promise was for ethnic Israel and for spiritual Israel, then the promise was destined for more than one. Or that's how I see. it. :love2:

 

Paul expresses creaturly, peer love. God does not have such love. He is not a creature and he has no peers.

Paul can love in a way that God cannot- as a creature loving fellow creatures.

God can only love creatures from the standpoint of being their creator- not like Paul whose love is based on their equality with him, and his commonness with them. He is a sinner feeling compassion for fellow sinners because they are like him.

That passage does not necessitate that God has to love in a salvific sense all men. Since the Bible teaches explicitly in this same text that he does not- we know that your interpretation is wrong.

That's not what the text is teaching.

Right. These people whom God did not elect are doing this.

Right. These people who God elected are doing this.

Wrong.

 

Hi Luke! Missed you buddy.

So, Paul's 'peer' love is greater and more merciful than God's divine love?

And since Paul is writing under inspiration, is his expression not reflective of God too?

Hatred is an expression of choosing one OVER another in the 1st century vernacular. You "hate" you mother and father in the sense that you chose God OVER them, not that you literally dishonor them with hatred, otherwise scripture would contradict itself by teaching us to love and honor our parents and God would be hypocritical to call us to love our enemies while hating his own. The concept of God choosing Jacob and his lineage for noble purposes, while choosing Esau and his lineage for common use is being expressed here. Even some scholarly Calvinists hold to this view of this passage, as discussed before.

You responded saying...

Paul, in his concluding remarks, said, "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

Notice that my words are almost a verbatim quote of Paul and your defense is simply, "wrong." You may have an issue with Paul, not me.

 

I'd venture to say that the Jews had repeatedly rejected God's commands concerning the sacrifice that was offered, which were the lame, halt, blind, sick, etc. They went through judicial hardening, and they were cut off because of their continual rebellion towards God. That's my two cents worth.

 

Please expound on what you mean by the "Preterist modifier". I am a partial Preterist, but I do believe He is coming again....that's another topic altogether.

That's correct, it was foretold what was going to happen. God knows the first from the last and the last from the first. He knows all things. Moses was telling them what was going to happen because God had revealed it to Him.

Their hearts they had hardened because they continually polluted the altar. It was through their continual rejection, that their hearts became hardened.

Malachi 1
7 Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible.

8 And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts.


12 But ye have profaned it, in that ye say, The table of the LORD is polluted; and the fruit thereof, even his meat, is contemptible.

13 Ye said also, Behold, what a weariness is it! and ye have snuffed at it, saith the LORD of hosts; and ye brought that which was torn, and the lame, and the sick; thus ye brought an offering: should I accept this of your hand? saith the LORD.

14 But cursed be the deceiver, which hath in his flock a male, and voweth, and sacrificeth unto the LORD a corrupt thing: for I am a great King, saith the LORD of hosts, and my name is dreadful among the heathen.



And another thing, their ears could not hear, and their eyes could not see, so that Jesus would be betrayed, whipped, stripped, beaten and crucified to fulfill the scriptures. If they truly knew that He was/is the Son of God, they would not have slaughtered Him. But Malachi is a precursor to what happened to Jesus in the four Gospels.

I agree with this.

 

That's a great question. If they are born Totally Depraved what would be the need to speak to them in parables?

He does it so they won't be saved YET. If they come to Christ then they won't crucify Him. God, according to Paul, is temporarily hardening/blinding the Jews (except a chosen few) to accomplish redemption for the world. This is what Romans 11 is all about.

 

Proof?

Because the scripture says they may have been saved had he not spoken to them in parables. Was Jesus just bluffing?

 

Thanks for the info on "preterist modifier". :thumbs:

Well, He did come to save the Jews first, or I believe it to be that way. He came to His own, and His own believed Him not......(John 1:11?)

:thumbs:

I agree with this assessment here Brother. I see it as a combination of man's rejection, and God hardening their hearts because of it.

I do not know if they truly knew that Jesus was the Son of God or not. But I do know the end result, and eventhough it was a horrific conclusion to Jesus' life, He fulfilled the will of the Father, and I am thankful for it. He did say if they believed Moses' writings they would have believed Him, because Moses wrote of Him. They also told Him that they have a father, father Abraham. So I am under the assumption that they really did not know who He really was/is.

That what I bolded is what I have been driving at for the last few years on here. They did not know that He did come as "God manifested in the flesh". I think that some thought He was a "kook" looking to deceive them. Some I think were just plain jealous because of the power He had, and all the miracles He performed.

All this had to take place so that He would fulfill all the prophecies concerning Him and His coming to die for you and me, two unworthy, sinners.

 

How about we look at the verses in their entirety?

Lets take the Mk 4 passage: "God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12 so that, " 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!' "

You left out the embolden part because it shows what may have happened IF indeed he didn't speak to them in parables, something that would be IMPOSSIBLE if they were born Totally blind and unable to believe without the prior work of regeneration.

What is really happening here? Jesus has preselected a few from Israel to be his apostles, to take the message of redemption to the rest of the world. The rest of Israel is being temporarily blinded to keep them in the darkness so they will crucify him thus fulfilling the prophecy and providing atonement for the world. It is ONLY after He is raised up (crucified and resurrected) that he draws all men to himself (sends the Spirit, and the gospel into all the world) thus beginning the His church....built on the rock of his appointed and inspired messengers (those on the inside that are being given to know these things).

No Arminian worth his salt would deny this truth. This is a problem for Calvinists, not Arminians.