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Were OT Saints Indwelt?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by kyredneck, Oct 31, 2011.

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Which position do you agree with most?

  1. OT Saints both regenerate and indwelt, basic continuity from OT to NT.

    9 vote(s)
    32.1%

  2. OT Saints both regenerate and indwelt, heightened experience for NT Saints.

    3 vote(s)
    10.7%

  3. OT Saints regenerate but not indwelt.

    8 vote(s)
    28.6%

  4. OT Saints operated upon but not indwelt, no mention of regeneration.

    8 vote(s)
    28.6%

  5. Spirit had nothing to do with the faithfulness of OT Saints

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
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  1. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Which position do you favor? By all means, feel free to comment.

    I personally waffle between the first and second positions, but chose option 2.

    Excerpts from:

    Were Old Covenant Believers Indwelt by the Holy Spirit?
    http://www.swbts.edu/resources//SWBTS/Resources/FacultyDocuments/Hamilton/them30_1.pdf

    "James Hamilton teaches OT and NT at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary’s Houston Park Place Campus. An ordained Southern Baptist minister, he is a recent graduate of Southern Seminary in Louisville, KY, where he studied under Tom Schreiner."

    “At least five positions have been taken on the issue of whether or not ordinary, individual members of the old covenant remnant were continually indwelt by the Spirit.

    Some scholars assume that a sixth position exists, but I am yet to find an affirmation of this sixth position. Here I will list the five real and one alleged positions, giving a brief description and listing major proponents of each.

    [1] On the issue of the Spirit’s role in the lives of believers, some scholars see basic continuity from the old to the new covenant. These authors argue that the old covenant remnant was both regenerate and indwelt by the Spirit. Adherents of this position include John Owen, B.B. Warfield, Sinclair Ferguson, Dan Fuller and Leon Wood.

    [2] Another set of scholars agrees that old covenant believers experienced both regeneration and indwelling, but seek to incorporate texts like John 7:39 into their understanding by using language that allows for a greater or heightened experience of the Spirit under the new covenant. Nevertheless, these scholars see no fundamental change in the way believers experience the Spirit when the new covenant is inaugurated. Interpreters who can be placed here include Augustine, John Calvin, George Ladd, Dan Block and Wayne Grudem.

    [3] The third position is the midpoint of the possible views. These scholars indicate that they see OT saints as regenerate by the Spirit but not indwelt by the Spirit. From statements in their writings, it seems best to place here Millard Erickson, J.I. Packer, Willem A. VanGemeren and Bruce Ware.

    [4] The next position is for those who see the old covenant remnant as operated upon but not indwelt by the Spirit. Unlike those in the previous category, these scholars stop short of using the word regeneration with reference to the old covenant faithful. Articulators of this view include Martin Luther, Lewis Sperry Chafer, Craig Blaising, D.A. Carson and Michael Green.

    [5] At the opposite end of the spectrum from those who affirm full continuity between the old and new covenant ministries of the Spirit would be those who affirm that the Spirit had nothing to do with the faithfulness of the old covenant remnant. Those who argue that OT saints were indwelt sometimes assume that this is the only alternative to their view, but I have not found anyone who takes this position.

    There are, however, a number of interpreters who stress the new nature of the Spirit’s ministry after the Christ event but offer no explanation of how old covenant believers became and remained faithful. Here we find prominent dispensationalists such as Charles Ryrie and John Walvoord. Most scholars who have written on the Spirit from the perspective of NT theology fit here, as do several authors who have written both commentaries on John and studies specifically on the Spirit in John – C.K. Barrett,
    Raymond Brown and Gary Burge.

    Before we continue, we should observe some interesting points regarding these positions. First, there are dispensationalists on both sides of this question. Leon Wood argues that old covenant believers were indwelt; Craig Blaising argues that they were not. Also, there are people who are soteriologically Calvinistic who argue that old covenant believers were not indwelt (Carson, Packer, Ware). This is noteworthy because those who argue that the old covenant remnant must have been indwelt usually do not agree with the Arminian understanding of prevenient grace and thus view sinners as dead and unable to respond. In their view, if OT saints were believers, they must have been indwelt.

    Finally, the position that the Holy Spirit had nothing to do with the faithfulness of the old covenant remnant is, at best, very rare. This point is significant because some scholars assume that this view is held, and it seems to be associated with dispensationalists. I have found no one who either affirms or argues for that position.”
     
    #1 kyredneck, Oct 31, 2011
  2. Herald

    Herald New Member

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    I suppose it matters as to what you mean by indwelt. If, by indwelt, you mean the full manifestation of the Spirit in light of the New Covenant, then the answer would be "no." However, if you mean the regenerating work of the Spirit, then the answer is "yes." I answered "no" because, there is a dichotomy between the regenerative and enabling work of the Spirit. Under the Old Covenant the Spirit performed His regenerative work the same as he does today. However, the Spirit did not reside permanently with each believer in an enabling sense. The enabling work of the Spirit was discriminatory and mostly temporary. This changed with the ushering in of the New Covenant.
     
    #2 Herald, Oct 31, 2011
  3. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    I second this with another "no". The Spirit moved upon them, shoot, even King Saul prophesied. But the Spirt never indwelt anyone prior to the works of the cross being accomplished.
     
    #3 convicted1, Oct 31, 2011
  4. MichaelBuckingham

    MichaelBuckingham New Member

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    2 Peter 1:21 "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

    Does this passage not imply that there was in a measure an indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

    Admittedly I have not thought much on the subject, so I welcome criticism!

    Michael
     
    #4 MichaelBuckingham, Oct 31, 2011
  5. mandym

    mandym New Member

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    No it only shows The HS was involved. Only in the NT does it ever suggest an indwelling. Ephesians 1:13
     
    #5 mandym, Oct 31, 2011
  6. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Would see them as essentially infants would be today, in the sense that God applies effectually the Grace of the Cross of Christ towards them, but is NOT in regeneration nor in indwelling/infilling them!

    They were saved by God by the Grace of the Cross to come, by faith in that!
     
    #6 JesusFan, Oct 31, 2011
  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ........It behoveth you to be born from above Jn 3:7 YLT

    Why would you think that folks under the OT were any different than us under the NT in this regard? Why is it necessary for us to be born of the Spirit and not them? Were they somehow better, or different than us?
     
    #7 kyredneck, Oct 31, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 31, 2011
  8. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    the Spirit has not yet be given unto them, sent from above, as the messiah had not yet be born/died/raised again!
     
    #8 JesusFan, Oct 31, 2011
  9. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    I was not totally clear on what was meant by the list of questions so let me answer this way.The indwelling of the Holy Spirit in Old Testament times was selective and temporary. He was nevertheless working in the lives of people to do much of the same type of thing as seen in John 16:8-11, though the object of faith was different. I know without a doubt that OT saints did not have the indwelling Spirit. The Lord made that clear in John 14:16,17. Also John 15:26 and 16:7,8.


    Now about being regenerate. If you mean Born again I would say no. The cross had not happened, and price had not been paid, and the dispensation in the OT and the NT are different. That is not to say they were not kept, but not in the same manner we are as they did not go to be with the Lord when they died as we do today. The church is the bride of Christ and the OT saints are not part of that so many things were different.
     
    #9 freeatlast, Oct 31, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 31, 2011
  10. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for commenting.

    Of course it does, as I believe this does also:

    15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy: I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite. Isa 57
     
    #10 kyredneck, Oct 31, 2011
  11. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Wow, what a coincidence, that's exactly verbatim of what was written here in this article. I guess great minds think alike, eh?
     
    #11 kyredneck, Oct 31, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 31, 2011
  12. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    When I consider passages such as this:

    I rejoice at thy word, As one that findeth great spoil. Ps 119:162

    or this:

    But his delight is in the law of Jehovah; And on his law doth he meditate day and night. Ps 1:2

    or these:

    16 I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word. GIMEL.
    18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold Wondrous things out of thy law. Ps 119

    ...and then consider that those OT Saints had only a fraction of the scriptures that we have; it was incomplete and lacking the fulfillment/revelation of the NT, and yet they were able to derive great joy and delight from meditating in the law. I don't think the natural man void of the Spirit could derive that sort of pleasure from those incomplete writings (or even in the Bible we have today for that matter), the Spirit had to be the source of the joy.

    jmho
     
    #12 kyredneck, Oct 31, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 31, 2011
  13. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    No it doesn't. Indwelt is a permanent thing and the Lord made it clear the Spirit had not been given and would only be given after He left to return to be with the Father. Prior to the cross the Spirit came and went only in certain people for certain special events.
     
    #13 freeatlast, Oct 31, 2011
  14. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Christ was revealing a mystery from of old in Jn 3, thus His gouge to Nicodemus:

    "Art thou the teacher of Israel, and understandest not these things?"

    See Gal 4:28-29:

    "Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now.
     
    #14 kyredneck, Nov 1, 2011
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  15. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    The HS came to indwell us under new Covenant, NEVER did perm do as such under the Old, he merely came upon those for a task, than departed!
     
    #15 JesusFan, Nov 1, 2011
  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ....bump......

    [add] Thought this would be relevant to the thread " How do you interpret John 20: 22?".
     
    #16 kyredneck, Feb 15, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 15, 2013
  17. Bronconagurski

    Bronconagurski New Member

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    This is better cuz it also has a poll. I should have looked for something before posting. I knew I didn't see anything too recent so I took the lazy way out. :)

    Here is what has caused me pause. If OT saints were not indwelled, then people like Abraham and Moses seem to have been on a much higher plane of character than myself. In other words, were they actually that faithful in their flesh? I think not. While I have not totally committed to believing that OT saints were indwelt (is it indwelt or indwelled, never was good in English) by the Spirit, I now am seriously considering that position. Before, I would have never thought it possible. I guess you can teach an old dog new tricks.

    Furthermore, when I think of the prophets, then I think they must have been indwelt by the Spirit, else how could they get it perfect?

    Finally, if OT saints did not receive regeneration by the indwelling of the Spirit, then how were they sealed or kept by the Spirit? Was Saul ever saved? Was David, a man after God's own heart, indwelt? These are questions rambling around in this pea brain of mine.
     
    #17 Bronconagurski, Feb 15, 2013
  18. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight Well-Known Member
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    I believe they were in dwelt in the OT also. How can a man desire God unless the spirit of God in dealt them? What does scripture say about the natural man and his desire for God?
     
    #18 Jedi Knight, Feb 15, 2013
  19. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Note that all the positions from the article make a clear distinction between regeneration and indwelling, it's not regeneration by indwelling, the two are not the same.

    Isaac born after the Spirit by the time of his weaning, David made to hope while on his mother's breast, and John the Baptist filled with the Spirit and jumping from joy while in his mother's womb; whatever this is they were all totally passive in it.

    The Spirit where he willeth doth blow, birth from above irresistable, man totally passive.
     
    #19 kyredneck, Feb 16, 2013
  20. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    The messenger of the Holy Spirit can be anything, it is the message and the one who sent it is everything. The word of God is an amazing being. It can come from a burning bush, Angels, a donkey, a worm and a messenger that came with a message from these being. The word of God changes our lives, makes us born again. As Jesus tells us.

    John 13:16
    Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

    John 15:20

    20 Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.

    Matthew 10:24-25

    24 “The student is not above the teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for students to be like their teachers, and servants like their masters. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebul, how much more the members of his household!

    Luke 6:40

    40 The student is not above the teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like their teacher.


    When we walk in His word we walk in the Holy Spirit.

    John 14:12
    Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

    Romans 6:
    Slaves to Righteousness

    15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

    19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[Or through] Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Hebrews 5
    :7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

    2 John 1 :
    4 It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us. 5 And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. 6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

    1 Peter 1:23
    For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

    I do not believe a person walking on their own being regenerated or indwelt no matter who you think you are.

    Jeremiah 23:
    20 The anger of the Lord will not turn back
    until he fully accomplishes
    the purposes of his heart.
    In days to come
    you will understand it clearly.
    21 I did not send these prophets,
    yet they have run with their message;
    I did not speak to them,
    yet they have prophesied.
    22 But if they had stood in my council,
    they would have proclaimed my words to my people
    and would have turned them from their evil ways
    and from their evil deeds.
     
    #20 psalms109:31, Feb 16, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 16, 2013
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