Were OT Saints Indwelt?

[psalms109:31]

Genesis 22 :
13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram[Many manuscripts of the Masoretic Text, Samaritan Pentateuch, Septuagint and Syriac; most manuscripts of the Masoretic Text a ram behind him] caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called that place The Lord Will Provide. And to this day it is said, “On the mountain of the Lord it will be provided.”

Abraham knew from that day forward that the Lord will provide, do you believe that He has provided for you?

The Lord Will Provide, praise be to Jesus

 

[Van]

I have not read this thread, but the OP was excellent. I hold the #4 position. When God spiritually places us in Christ, to be washed by His blood, He then seals us in Christ with the Holy Spirit. Thus, under the New Covenant we are in Christ and Christ is in us.

So in my view it is biblically impossible for OT Saints to have been indwelt during their lives. But the Holy Spirit did come upon them, and with the Spirit's direction, they spoke God's word, and carried out God's plan.

Calvinism claims total spiritual inability, which is an obvious fiction, see Matthew 13. The Biblical view is the unregenerate have limited spiritual ability, they can understand the milk of the gospel. Therefore, the OT saints could also understand some of God's revelation, and if the HS came upon them, even more.

Bottom line, the unregenerate are by nature children of wrath. Therefore they are not children of God. They are spiritually dead, i.e. separated from God. When God places a person in Christ, they are made alive together with Christ. This is regeneration, going from being dead to being alive. No other action provides regeneration in all of scripture.

 

[MB]

So you don't think having faith of looking forward to the lamb lead to the slaughter for our salvation is not the same as the faith in the one who has? I am talking about faith in the one to come and the one who has already has, but we still have to take it by faith like them. We are better off because it has already happened, but their faith is not the same to, by looking forward to it?

All I'm saying is if men could be saved any other way than through Christ then Christ died in vain. I did not mean to imply that they were hopelessly lost. Certainly Lazarus wasn't. I believe believers were sent to paradise and there they stayed until Christ came and preached the gospel to them. They did not nor could they have known Christ, He hadn't come yet. They of course were looking for their Messiah but they didn't know who He was. They did not know He was God Him Self.
MB

 

[MB]

All of these support my position that the old testament saints were saved on credit not activated until the cross.

I do not see the point you were making to the contrary (if at all). Please enlighten me.

David wrote;
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

This in my opinion proves David was in Hell until Christ came and showed David the path of life...
MB

 

[Dr. Bob]

No choice for the correct answer (mine, of course)

OT saints were regenerated AND holy Spirit indwelt BUT this was not the PERMANENT indwelling Jesus promised His disciples that would begin at Pentecost.

He that is with you shall be in you, Jesus promised.

Today we have permanent indwelling of the Spirit, not the in/out of OT saints or disciples. Makes me want to "cut them some slack" because they didn't have what I have today. Thank God for this gift.

 

[Bronconagurski]

NNE was saved under the Law. Scripture is clear on this point. Those who died under the OT went to Paradise until Christ redeemed them from the curse of the law. No person can stand in God's presence without the imputed righteousness of Christ. This imputation did not occur until after the New Covenant was made & enforced after Christ's death.

If you think they were saved under the Law, you are disagreeing with Scripture, not with me. Salvation did not come until Christ's blood was shed & offered to God in the true holy of holies. Hebrews is the great instruction manual on the Covenants. We would all do well to read it before attributing New Covenant benefits on persons while they lived under Old Covenant.


For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the age hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Hebrews 9:24-28)

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. . (Hebrews 9:15-17)

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
(Rev 12:10-11)

I agree the no one is saved by keeping the law. However, Abraham was saved by grace thru faith. Scripture plainly tells us he believed God and it was counted unto him as righteousness or justification.

If there was not a distinction in paradise between saved and lost, then everyone in the OT went to heaven according to your thinking. If not, then how was the distinction made?

 

[michael-acts17:11]

I agree the no one is saved by keeping the law. However, Abraham was saved by grace thru faith. Scripture plainly tells us he believed God and it was counted unto him as righteousness or justification.

If there was not a distinction in paradise between saved and lost, then everyone in the OT went to heaven according to your thinking. If not, then how was the distinction made?

Yes, before the New Covenant, all of the dead went to the same place. Sheol comprised both hades & paradise with a gulf between the two. Abraham & the beggar did not go to Heaven when they died because they did not have the imputed righteousness of Christ. They could not be in God's presence without the regenerating work of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit by the blood of Christ.

Abraham's faith was counted as righteousness, but not as the saving, redeeming, regenerating righteousness of Christ.

Answer me this question. How could pre-New Covenant persons attain salvation without the imputed righteousness of Christ? If you believe they had His righteousness, then by what means?


And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. (Luke 16:22-24)

 

[Bronconagurski]

Yes, before the New Covenant, all of the dead went to the same place. Sheol comprised both hades & paradise with a gulf between the two. Abraham & the beggar did not go to Heaven when they died because they did not have the imputed righteousness of Christ. They could not be in God's presence without the regenerating work of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit by the blood of Christ.

Abraham's faith was counted as righteousness, but not as the saving, redeeming, regenerating righteousness of Christ.

Answer me this question. How could pre-New Covenant persons attain salvation without the imputed righteousness of Christ? If you believe they had His righteousness, then by what means?


And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. (Luke 16:22-24)

Abraham's faith had to be counted as the saving, righteousness that comes from God, because the scripture plainly tells us that none is righteous, no, not one. That includes Abraham. The scripture also tells us that Abraham was justified before the law. Jesus said that Abraham saw His day and rejoiced in it. I believe Abraham was saved because of His faith in Christ, the promised seed. Jesus said as much.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Abraham's faith had to be counted as the saving, righteousness that comes from God, because the scripture plainly tells us that none is righteous, no, not one. That includes Abraham. The scripture also tells us that Abraham was justified before the law. Jesus said that Abraham say His day and rejoiced in it. I believe Abraham was saved because of His faith in Christ, the promised seed. Jesus said as much.

Those are nice opinions, but all of the Scripture I have posted speak against them. Abraham was justified before the law, not before God. You still haven't explained, from Scripture, how the righteousness of Christ was imputed before His sacrifice. One cannot read Romans & Hebrews without seeing the truth that His righteousness was not imputed to men until His death.

Hebrews 11 is the death knell for OT salvation. How much clearer must God state that persons under the OT did not receive the promise of eternal life until it was universally given to all who have, do, & will believe? God has told us that Abraham's faith was not saving faith. Please explain your view of the following passage:

By faith Abraham... These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off... And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (Hebrews 11)






Galations 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

1Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

2Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

 

[Bronconagurski]

Those are nice opinions, but all of the Scripture I have posted speak against them. Abraham was justified before the law, not before God. You still haven't explained, from Scripture, how the righteousness of Christ was imputed before His sacrifice. One cannot read Romans & Hebrews without seeing the truth that His righteousness was not imputed to men until His death.

Hebrews 11 is the death knell for OT salvation. How much clearer must God state that persons under the OT did not receive the promise of eternal life until it was universally given to all who have, do, & will believe? God has told us that Abraham's faith was not saving faith. Please explain your view of the following passage:

By faith Abraham... These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off... And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (Hebrews 11)






Galations 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

1Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

2Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

I presume you are not a dispensationalist, so we will have to agree to disagree, but there had to be a distinction made in God's eyes as to why Abraham and the beggar went to one side, and the rich man went to the torment side. I always viewed the rich man like a man in jail that is guilty awaiting sentencing (the great white throne) and then is sent to state prison (the lake of fire), and Abraham and the ones on his side were saved by grace thru faith. They were saved, no matter how you look at the word saved, or else they would have ended up on the torment side.

One final thought: Did not Elijah and Enoch go straight into Heaven?

 

[kyredneck]

No choice for the correct answer (mine, of course)

OT saints were regenerated AND holy Spirit indwelt BUT this was not the PERMANENT indwelling Jesus promised His disciples that would begin at Pentecost.

He that is with you shall be in you, Jesus promised.

Today we have permanent indwelling of the Spirit, not the in/out of OT saints or disciples. Makes me want to "cut them some slack" because they didn't have what I have today. Thank God for this gift.

Not even the second option fits this?

 

[michael-acts17:11]

I presume you are not a dispensationalist, so we will have to agree to disagree, but there had to be a distinction made in God's eyes as to why Abraham and the beggar went to one side, and the rich man went to the torment side. I always viewed the rich man like a man in jail that is guilty awaiting sentencing (the great white throne) and then is sent to state prison (the lake of fire), and Abraham and the ones on his side were saved by grace thru faith. They were saved, no matter how you look at the word saved, or else they would have ended up on the torment side.

One final thought: Did not Elijah and Enoch go straight into Heaven?

Once again, those are interesting viewpoints without Scriptural support. If you reject Hebrews 11 because it does not fit your dispensational theology, then maybe you should rethink your theology. My beliefs are not contingent upon a set theological system, but on the clear teaching of Scripture. Once you commit to believing a system, you open yourself up to believing false doctrine in defense of that system.

If salvation was given to the beggar, then he would have been taken to God, not to Abraham in sheol. Besides, I don't believe that hades & Heaven are in the same place.

I'll answer that question after you give multiple Biblical passages supporting your theology that men were saved apart from the redemptive work of Christ, that men went to Heaven before Pentecost, that there was eternal salvation under the Law, & that the eternal promises were given to those under the Law before the New Covenant.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Seeing Christ is not Salvation. Being indwelt by the Holy Spirit is. The old testament saints were not indwelt by the Spirit. No one is saved with out the blood.
MB

Well I disagree then ......They looked forward like we look back. I believe you cannot belong to God if the Spirit of Christ is not in you....Old or New. Now if any man have not the Spirit of God he is none of His. BTW we have not fully experieced our salvation just like the OT saints untill our change comes.

 

[Winman]

Well I disagree then. I believe you cannot belong to God if the Spirit of Christ is not in you....Old or New. Now if any man have not the Spirit of God he is none of His. BTW we have not fully experieced our salvation just like the OT saints untill our change comes.

You are correct, and this is why the OT saints had to wait in Abraham's bosom (Luke 16). After Jesus rose from the dead believers go directly to heaven.

I personally believe Eph 4:8 describes where Jesus descended into the earth and gave the saints waiting there the Holy Spirit. After that he led them to heaven.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

I believe when scriptures says, "he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men" describes when Jesus gave the Spirit to saints waiting in Abraham's bosom, and then led them to heaven. After this we always read of believers going straight to heaven when they die.

 

[Jedi Knight]

You are correct, and this is why the OT saints had to wait in Abraham's bosom (Luke 16). After Jesus rose from the dead believers go directly to heaven.

I personally believe Eph 4:8 describes where Jesus descended into the earth and gave the saints waiting there the Holy Spirit. After that he led them to heaven.

Disagree:tongue3: I believe they got the holy spirit like everyone else....they must be born again. Abraham believed God,just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. It's all the same...one way.

 

[Winman]

When the poll says "OT regenerate, but not indwelt", it depends upon how you define regenerate. The OT saints were described as "living" by Jesus.

Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Jesus described Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as "living". How were they alive? They were justified, their sins were forgiven. Because they believed righteousness was imputed them. They were not spiritually dead in sins.

But they had not received the Spirit yet, as Jesus was not yet glorified in Luke 16. Abraham was waiting in Abraham's bosom at this point of time.

Regenerated means "alive AGAIN". Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were alive again, because their sins were forgiven and they were spiritually alive again.

It is the same as the prodigal son.

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

The word "regenerated" means alive AGAIN, just as Jesus described the prodigal son when he repented.

This refutes that we are born dead in sin. If we are all born dead in sin, it is impossible to say that we are regenerated or alive AGAIN if we were never alive to begin with. It is amazing how folks are oblivious to this fact.

 

[Jedi Knight]

But they had not received the Spirit yet, as Jesus was not yet glorified in Luke 16. Abraham was waiting in Abraham's bosom at this point of time.

Regenerated means "alive AGAIN". Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were alive again, because their sins were forgiven and they were spiritually alive again.

They were spiritually Alive? By what spirit pray tell?

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Disagree:tongue3: I believe they got the holy spirit like everyone else....they must be born again. Abraham believed God,just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. It's all the same...one way.

Hebrews 11: They did not receive the promises, were not made perfect, did not enter heaven until Christ's finished redemptive work.

A prisoner can look ahead to his release, but he is just as imprisoned until that day. Same for salvation. That truth is throughout Hebrews.

 

[Winman]

They were spiritually Alive? By what spirit pray tell?

They were justified, their sins were forgiven, they were no longer separated from God by sin.

This is what Calvinists misunderstand, spiritual death means to be separated from God by sin, to be at enmity with him. It is not like physical death whatsoever. The rich man who died and went to hell in Luke 16 was spiritually dead. He was separated from Abraham and all the saints by a great gulf. But he could hear, see, smell, touch, taste, feel remorse and even repent. This is spiritual death.

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Spiritual death does not mean to be like a corpse. This man was spiritually dead, yet he could carry on a conversation with Abraham who was spiritually alive. But Abraham was not in torments, he was in the paradise section of Hell called Abraham's bosom.

Also, you do not cease to be you when you get saved, you do not lose your spirit, but your spirit is cleansed and joined to the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Just as when two parents come together and create a new person, when your spirit is joined to the Holy Spirit it is a new creation. We are now "partakers" of the heavenly nature. We are not God, but we are a new creation.

 

[Winman]

Disagree:tongue3: I believe they got the holy spirit like everyone else....they must be born again. Abraham believed God,just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. It's all the same...one way.

Abraham did need to receive the Holy Spirit. That is why he and all the OT saints had to wait in Abraham's bosom, until Jesus rose from the dead and was glorified and sent the Spirit. The Holy Spirit was not given to believers in the OT, as Jesus was not yet glorified.

Jhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

The disciples and thousands of people believed on Jesus before the Holy Spirit was given, this PROVES that a man does not have to be regenerated to have the ability to believe. The scriptures say the disciples believed on Jesus in John chapter 2, three years before they received the Holy Spirit.

It is Calvinism that has you confused.