Were OT Saints Indwelt?

[Jedi Knight]

They were justified, their sins were forgiven, they were no longer separated from God by sin.

This is what Calvinists

Ummm I didn't even bring that dead guy into this.:flower:

 

[psalms109:31]

Hebrews 11: They did not receive the promises, were not made perfect, did not enter heaven until Christ's finished redemptive work.

A prisoner can look ahead to his release, but he is just as imprisoned until that day. Same for salvation. That truth is throughout Hebrews.

There is no contradictions in scripture. If it says people were filled by the Holy Spirit then they have, it was a temporary thing to accomplish His will. The promise is when Jesus is glorified, He will pour the Holy Spirit on the earth and that who are and will believe in His name will be filled by Him, not just here and there but every where, not just prophets and leaders one who will prepare the way throughout history.

Isaiah 32:15
till the Spirit is poured on us from on high, and the desert becomes a fertile field, and the fertile field seems like a forest.

Isaiah 44:3
For I will pour water on the thirsty land, and streams on the dry ground; I will pour out my Spirit on your offspring, and my blessing on your descendants.

Ezekiel 39:29
I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the people of Israel, declares the Sovereign Lord.”

Joel 2:28
[ The Day of the Lord ] “And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.

Joel 2:29
Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

Zechariah 12:10
[ Mourning for the One They Pierced ] “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Acts 2:17
“‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

Acts 2:18
Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

Acts 2:33
Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.


Now that is the promise not here or there, but every where.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Still waiting for a Biblical repudiation of Hebrews 9-11, which plainly states that Abraham's faith was not saving faith, that he did not receive the promise, & that he was not made perfect until the fulfillment of sacrifice.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Hebrews 11: They did not receive the promises, were not made perfect, did not enter heaven until Christ's finished redemptive work.

A prisoner can look ahead to his release, but he is just as imprisoned until that day. Same for salvation. That truth is throughout Hebrews.

What does that have to do wether or not if they were born again? If anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

What does that have to do wether or not if they were born again? If anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Is that a serious question? They could not be born again apart from the shed blood, finished work, Holy Spirit indwelling, or enacted New Covenant.

Explain, with Scriptural support, how it was possible to be born again under the Law apart from the redemptive work of Christ. That doctrine is in complete opposition to the New Covenant & the teachings of the "New Testament".

 

[psalms109:31]

Still waiting for a Biblical repudiation of Hebrews 9-11, which plainly states that Abraham's faith was not saving faith, that he did not receive the promise, & that he was not made perfect until the fulfillment of sacrifice.

All those who are known for great faith have not received the promise, but look all they have done.

We should be able to do much more, who has received the promise. I will say that those the scripture says was filled, was filled before the cross, but many did what they did because of what they heard through the message.

Abraham believed God and was credited His righteousness, even not receiving what was promised on the day of the Lord while on earth, with him not being there or not after but receiving what was promised with us.

 

[Jedi Knight]

I cannot do a serious bible study on here but will make some comments. Jesus said to Nic at night "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things?". Nic should have known but wasn't saved and didn't have spiritual understanding. If he was saved he would get it....kind of a Doh! moment to Nic. Jesus death paid the price to save us from God himself when we were yet"future" His enemies. Now ask yourself if anyman have not the spirit in him....how would he desire to follow God? Answer is he wouldn't. OT has passages from time to time said they had the spirit of God IN them. Numbers 27:18 The LORD replied, "Take Joshua son of Nun, who has the Spirit IN him, and lay your hands on him. Daniel 5:11
There is a man in your kingdom who has the spirit of the holy gods IN him. genesis 41:38 So Pharaoh asked them, "Can we find anyone like this man, one IN whom is the spirit of God ?" Speaking of Joseph. Here is a NT one as well confirming...1 Peter 1:11 They wondered what time or situation the Spirit of Christ WITHIN them was talking about when he told them in advance about Christ's suffering and his great glory afterward.

 

[Bronconagurski]

Still waiting for a Biblical repudiation of Hebrews 9-11, which plainly states that Abraham's faith was not saving faith, that he did not receive the promise, & that he was not made perfect until the fulfillment of sacrifice.

It doesn't say he did not have saving faith, it says his salvation was not made complete until Christ. But make no mistake, in God's eyes, he was as saved as he ever was going to be. If Abraham was not saved, the he would have been left in paradise. That is a fact.

Here is what MacArthur says:
True faith has the courage to count on salvation. These faithful saints had to live in hope. They knew very little about the nature or the time or the means of God's salvation. But they knew it was coming, and this was the basis of their trust. They had abiding confidence that one day God would do the necessary thing to redeem them and reward them. What happened to them before that time was not consequential. They did not receive what was promised but they had gained approval through their faith. Their faith was not in some immediate fulfillment, but in the ultimate fulfillment of the promises. Here is where faith is most tested and where it most matters.
The ultimate promise was of a redeemer, the Messiah, and of His covenant that would bring righteousness before God. "As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful search and inquiry, seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow" (1 Pet. 1:10-11). All these, from Enoch through the prophets, had that courageous faith which counts, without reservation, on final salvation.
Many of them never received the land. Sometimes they had earthly victory; sometimes they did not. Sometimes their faith saved them from death; sometimes it brought them death. No matter. They knew that God had provided something better.
God has provided this "something better" for us, that is for those under the New Covenant, which is why apart from us they should not be made perfect. That is, not until our time, the time of Christianity, could their salvation be completed, made perfect. Until Jesus' atoning work on the cross was accomplished, no salvation was complete, no matter how great the faith a believer may have had. Their salvation was based on what Christ would do; ours is based on what Christ has done. Their faith looked forward to promise; ours looks back to historical fact.
Yet, though their salvation was not completed in their lifetimes, these were not second-rate believers. They were believers of the highest order. They courageously struggled, suffered, and counted on salvation. They believed all of God's Word that they had, which is what counts with Him. How much less faith do we often have, in spite of our much greater light. "Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed" (John 20:29).
MacArthur New Testament Commentary, The - MacArthur New Testament Commentary – Hebrews.

 

[psalms109:31]

If Abraham wanted to understand why God wanted him to leave his home, he wouldn't, but he left by faith in what he did not see. If we think seeing and understanding is more important than faith in His word we will never have life in us that comes from His word. It is His job to open our eyes.

 

[Bronconagurski]

Once again, those are interesting viewpoints without Scriptural support. If you reject Hebrews 11 because it does not fit your dispensational theology, then maybe you should rethink your theology. My beliefs are not contingent upon a set theological system, but on the clear teaching of Scripture. Once you commit to believing a system, you open yourself up to believing false doctrine in defense of that system.

If salvation was given to the beggar, then he would have been taken to God, not to Abraham in sheol. Besides, I don't believe that hades & Heaven are in the same place.

I'll answer that question after you give multiple Biblical passages supporting your theology that men were saved apart from the redemptive work of Christ, that men went to Heaven before Pentecost, that there was eternal salvation under the Law, & that the eternal promises were given to those under the Law before the New Covenant.

Jesus told the thief on the cross, this day you will be with me in paradise. Abraham went to the saved side of paradise, and the rich man went to the lost side. There was a great gulf fixed between them. Now Jesus has led captivity captive and the saved side is in heaven. The lost side is still there, awaiting the great white throne judgement. You keep asking for biblical proof, yet you can not disprove the above scripturally. You seem to me majoring on minors to win a point. If Abraham was not saved, then why is he in heaven now? It can't be only because the gospel, or everyone would be saved, and that would make you a universalist.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Jesus told the thief on the cross, this day you will be with me in paradise. Abraham went to the saved side of paradise, and the rich man went to the lost side. There was a great gulf fixed between them. Now Jesus has led captivity captive and the saved side is in heaven. The lost side is still there, awaiting the great white throne judgement. You keep asking for biblical proof, yet you can not disprove the above scripturally. You seem to me majoring on minors to win a point. If Abraham was not saved, then why is he in heaven now? It can't be only because the gospel, or everyone would be saved, and that would make you a universalist.

I've already given several passages which support my position. Abraham was safe, but he was not eternally saved through the blood of Christ. Christ was in paradise until He was resurrected. Remember when He told Mary not to touch Him because He had not yet ascended to the Father? Where do you think Christ was those three days & nights? What do you think the purpose of paradise was, if you think Abraham was saved? If he was saved, he would have been taken to the Father, not to a temporary dwelling until the time of redemption was fulfilled. When he attained salvation, he was taken to Heaven with everyone else who was awaiting salvation. Universalist? Wow, that is out of left field. I'm majoring on the teachings of the New Covenant. Are you not majoring on the teachings of dispensationalism?

 

[MB]

OT saints were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit nor did they have access to heaven in death. The Cross of Christ is what changed this and the covenants for that matter.

John 14:17 (NASB95)
17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

The catalyst for the change from "with" to "in" is the cross.

A:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: men

 

[Van]

Minor point, only a person who has been washed with His blood can be indwelt. We are washed, the washing of regeneration, when we are spiritually placed in Christ. So the catalyst for the change from with to abides in forever is to be placed in Christ and washed with His blood.

Question for all those claiming the OT saints were regenerated during their physical lifetime: How did they "follow" Jesus in the regeneration?

 

[Bronconagurski]

I've already given several passages which support my position. Abraham was safe, but he was not eternally saved through the blood of Christ. Christ was in paradise until He was resurrected. Remember when He told Mary not to touch Him because He had not yet ascended to the Father? Where do you think Christ was those three days & nights? What do you think the purpose of paradise was, if you think Abraham was saved? If he was saved, he would have been taken to the Father, not to a temporary dwelling until the time of redemption was fulfilled. When he attained salvation, he was taken to Heaven with everyone else who was awaiting salvation. Universalist? Wow, that is out of left field. I'm majoring on the teachings of the New Covenant. Are you not majoring on the teachings of dispensationalism?

I do not think you are a universalist, that was hyperbole, but my point is that Abraham was reserved unto salvation just like the other side of paradise was reserved for eternal judgement in the lake of fire. I do believe they were both in the same place with a gulf dividing the saved from the lost, and the saved were moved to heaven, while the lost are still there, awaiting the great white throne judgment. I think we have playing semantics here.

 

[kyredneck]

....bump......

Thought this would be relevant to the thread ‘Water and Spirit’.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=99707&page=7

 

[kyredneck]

...and the OP link is outdated and doesn't work, here's a good one:

Were Old Covenant Believers Indwelt by the Holy Spirit? James Hamilton

 

[JonC]

...and the OP link is outdated and doesn't work, here's a good one:

Were Old Covenant Believers Indwelt by the Holy Spirit? James Hamilton

:wavey: Thank you,

This was my question on the other post.

The author indicates that the indwelling of the Spirit is not salvation in terms of regeneration but instead "the indwelling is God's covenant presence." This would go well with N.T. Wright's explanation of righteousness (righteousness expresses a covenant relationship). The reason I disagree with the article is that it gives, IMHO, too much validity to the way Jews looked to the Old Covenant. They misunderstood the new birth as alluded to in the OT, the nature of God's Kingdom, and God's plan of redemption for all nations. I don't think it necessary to restrict the meaning of Scripture to their view, but it is necessary to understand their view in order to understand Scripture (that's why I believe as I do on John 3).

The article concludes that the OT saints were not indwelt by the Spirit, but the Spirit was with them (God in the Temple....at least for some of the time, until He departed. But the point the author makes is that the Spirit was among them, just not indwelling them). Being born from above is, IMHO, a regenerative act. It is the cleansing of God and the act of God putting a new spirit within us. This is something that, in Ezekiel's day, they looked towards - not something that was taking place. Ezekiel looked towards a day when God would cleans them, forgive them, and put a new spirit in them. So we know that this did not occur for OT prophets. The difference may be whether or not the new birth is referring to, as you seem to indicate, one's relationship to a covenant or if it is referring to one's relationship with God. I believe the new birth is regeneration.

 

[beameup]

IMO, only the Body of Christ is sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is not the same as "being filled with" or the H.S. being "upon". The "sealing" takes place the moment of salvation.

 

[kyredneck]

....The author indicates that the indwelling of the Spirit is not salvation in terms of regeneration but instead "the indwelling is God's covenant presence." This would go well with N.T. Wright's explanation of righteousness (righteousness expresses a covenant relationship).

It also goes well with scripture:

15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy: I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite. Isa 57

The reason I disagree with the article is that it gives, IMHO, too much validity to the way Jews looked to the Old Covenant. They misunderstood the new birth as alluded to in the OT, the nature of God's Kingdom, and God's plan of redemption for all nations.

...I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden from the foundation of the world. Mt 13:35

...It behoveth you to be born from above; the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3:7,8

Wow, imagine that, those dumb Jews misunderstood mysteries that had never before been revealed.

I don't think it necessary to restrict the meaning of Scripture to their view, but it is necessary to understand their view in order to understand Scripture (that's why I believe as I do on John 3). I do need to spend more time with the article, however.

I think you read waaaaaay too much into that little word 'water' in Jn 3:5. I totally disagree with the disconnect that you create by concluding OT saints never experienced the heavenly birth. This is what dispensationalism does, it destroys the underlying continuity of the scriptures.

 

[HankD]

Has anyone pointed out this passage?

1 Peter 1
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

The Greek bears out the "in" part.

BTW I am a dispensationalist and I believe that the OT "saints" were born again when on earth they first believed.

HankD