Which do you hold to?

[Salty]

In another thread, Ruiz said:

"There are two different beliefs on this issue.

There is the Regulative Principles which says, "unless commanded in worship, it is prohibited."

The Normative Principles are the second view which says, "unless prohibited in worship, it is allowed."

I hold to the regulative principles of worship;"

So which belief do you hold to? and why?

 

[seekingthetruth]

This reminds me of reading the website for that big mega SBC church in California. For worship you can choose 7 different venues, including a Yoga venue where you can stretch while you worship, a heavy metal venue where all the headbangers can worship, even a night club venue complete with tables with tableclothes and candles where you can dine as you worship. And a singles venue where you can hook up with a date while you worship.

Since the Bible doesn't prescribe such distractions I would say they are unbiblical. Simply "seeker sensitive" ministry is going too far in this case.

In my opinion, the message of the gospel is the most serious message a person will ever hear, and it should be treated with respect and not turned into a social affair.

So I would say that I am definately in the Regulative Principles camp.

john

 

[J.D.]

Regulative Principle.

It should be self-explanatory but I know a lot of folks don't get it, and from previous bouts around this subject I know I'm wasting my time promoting it.

 

[Salty]

I lean towards the The Normative Principles - but at the same time using common sense. We can go back to the old argument that those who hold to Regulative would be prohibited from using any electricity including air conditioning, ect, song books ect.

This reminds me of a discussion going on in Europe about military uniforms. The regulation does not prohibit purple shoe strings - so it must be okay - uhh - no they are not ok. Common sense does come into play.

Seeking the truth used the correct phrase "ministry is going too far"

Salty

 

[menageriekeeper]

Normative. Of course, I am a liberal after all.

However, I also subscribe to scripture that says "in everything moderation". So I'm thinking yoga and heavy metal, might not fall into that catagory.

 

[12strings]

As much as the regulative principle would seem to give us assurance we are doing the right thing, I don't think there is any way to actually apply it without going to obviously unreasonble extremes, (no pews, no carpet, no AC, No neck-ties, Definitly no instruments...).

I read an article on the Regulative principle by John frame, who claims to hold to the regulative principle, but as he explained his reasoning, it was clear that he really held to more of a Normative principle.

However, I do like his reasoning which goes basically like this: We should seek, in corporate worship and our lives, to ACTIVELY OBEY scripture rather than simply AVOID DISOBEYING IT. In Acts, it is said they had teaching, fellowship, breaking of the bread, and prayer. Singing a prayer to God would be an active application of the command to pray, even singing with a piano or guitar.

I would like to hear how someone who holds to a regulative principle determines why some modern inventions (like carpet, hymnals, microphones) would be allowed while others (pianos...etc) would not. would not the allowance of any of these actually make you a normative person?

 

[Tom Bryant]

I believe in the regulative principle until I find something I want to do, then I believe in the normative principle. :tongue3:

Seriously, I am more of a normative principle pastor.

 

[Herald]

Regulative principle.

 

[sag38]

I guess I'm more normative.

 

[The Archangel]

As much as the regulative principle would seem to give us assurance we are doing the right thing, I don't think there is any way to actually apply it without going to obviously unreasonable extremes, (no pews, no carpet, no AC, No neck-ties, Definitely no instruments...).

I read an article on the Regulative principle by John frame, who claims to hold to the regulative principle, but as he explained his reasoning, it was clear that he really held to more of a Normative principle.

However, I do like his reasoning which goes basically like this: We should seek, in corporate worship and our lives, to ACTIVELY OBEY scripture rather than simply AVOID DISOBEYING IT. In Acts, it is said they had teaching, fellowship, breaking of the bread, and prayer. Singing a prayer to God would be an active application of the command to pray, even singing with a piano or guitar.

I would like to hear how someone who holds to a regulative principle determines why some modern inventions (like carpet, hymnals, microphones) would be allowed while others (pianos...etc) would not. would not the allowance of any of these actually make you a normative person?

Since I enjoy reading Frame as well, I think your post raises an excellent point.

I think the issue--and application of the Regulative Principle--deals more with the substance of the worship service, not the accoutrements that aid in the service itself.

I tend to apply both principles and I tend to do so based on thinking through the substance of the worship service and the things that aid conveying that substance (ie. microphones, instruments, etc.).

Also, I think those who apply the Regulative Principle in a hyper- way are missing the point when they seek to outlaw pianos, other instruments, pews, music written after AD 100, etc.

The point of the Regulative Principle is to make sure the substance of the worship service accords with Scripture. I do not believe the Regulative Principle should be applied to keep the church in the Dark Ages.

After all, it is a real possibility that one can have all of the substance of a hyper-applied Regulative Principle (no pews, no instruments, no carpet, no microphones, etc.) and miss the scriptural and spiritual substance of the Principle itself.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Salty]

Okay, for the sake of argument no more examples of instruments, a/c, ect. ( I can do that since I am the OP)

Lets use other examples that we do actually use in worship that are not specifically used in Scripture.

How about communion. Apparently only one cup was used by Jesus at the Last supper, which was passed around. If this is the case, then according to the Regulative Principles, having individual cups would be un-scriptural.

Other examples?

 

[Jerome]

Offering time! Acts 4:34-35

No plates or lock box.
The procedure was to lay your money at the preachers feet!

 

[seekingthetruth]

Okay, for the sake of argument no more examples of instruments, a/c, ect. ( I can do that since I am the OP)

Lets use other examples that we do actually use in worship that are not specifically used in Scripture.

How about communion. Apparently only one cup was used by Jesus at the Last supper, which was passed around. If this is the case, then according to the Regulative Principles, having individual cups would be un-scriptural.

Other examples?

Yeah, but did they have AIDS and Hepetitis and Hong Kong flu to spread around?

John

 

[seekingthetruth]

I didn't think this out very well before when I said I was regulative. I immediately thought of the extreme examples of the liberal seeker sensitive church today and didn't even consider the traditional worship service.

So now, I'd have to say that I am normative, but with some very conservative limits.:thumbsup:

John

 

[Salty]

Yeah, but did they have AIDS and Hepetitis and Hong Kong flu to spread around?

John

Assuming you are serious - that is diseases could be passes by a common communion cup - then I am sure the Lord would been aware of that and made appropriate provisions - if you believe in the Regulative Principle.

But us who hold to the Normative Principle, simply use common sense

 

[seekingthetruth]

Assuming you are serious - that is diseases could be passes by a common communion cup - then I am sure the Lord would been aware of that and made appropriate provisions.

Yes I know Jesus would have made provisions, but I am just saying that this is why it is not practical for us today.

And yeah, I was serious:smilewinkgrin:

John

 

[Salty]

Yes I know Jesus would have made provisions, but I am just saying that this is why it is not practical for us today.

And yeah, I was serious:smilewinkgrin:

John

So we agree we are both Normative.

Now, I would like to hear from some Regulative Principles folks, and have them answer the questions we have brought up. - if they can.

 

[Ruiz]

I am late in getting here on this discussion, this has been a busy few days.

I hold to the regulative principles. However, let me note that there is a distinction between elements (which is regulated) and instruments and circumstances of worship (which, generally speaking) are not regulated.

For instance, offering plates and communion cups would fall under instruments of worship. They are used to help to utilize the elements.

Yet, I believe the regulative principles is to worship God in how he has commanded. We cannot improve on God's commands.

 

[Salty]

bumping this interesting discussion

 

[12strings]

Ok, How would someone who holds to the regulative principle determine scripturally what is an "Element" of worship, as opposed to what is a "instrument, or Circumstance."?

How would your reasoning apply to:
-Announcements?
-Offering time?
-Other examples?
-musical instuments or styles?