Man's contribution to salvation

[seekingthetruth]

Earth, Wind and Fire posted this statement on another thread:

"You mean take the human element out of it & let God be God? A very wise Pastor once told me the following, " If man contributes any essential part towards his salvation, he effectively becomes his own savior" .... I believe that to be the clear point of demarcation."
__________________

My question is this, if man contibutes no part towards his own salvation, then why does the Bible instruct us to repent? Believe?

If the human element is taken completely away, then what is the need for evangelism? churches? or even prayer?

If man has no control over his own fate, then why even worry about eternity? After all, if it is solely up to God, how can we change it?

Can someone explain this to me without calling me ignorant, or saying that I am evil (in darkeness)? (which means you Luke, you are not invited to respond)

John

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Frankly John I do not have the time right now to go into it in the depth required.....Ive got to get to work but there are many good books & commentary on line even that you can listen to.

I would caution you that on BB you have people on here that could also lend some assistance however then other folks come in with biases & want to do battle & you know who they are on both sides. I guess Im saying that you wont get all your answers via this forum & perhaps youd be better served obtaining them other ways. Thats if your sincere & willing to go the extra step necessary. your call buddy.

 

[Herald]

John,

Even Augustine and Calvin would say that man needs to repent and believe. Opponents of the DoG incorrectly conclude that it teaches man's will is not involved in salvation. The Scripture teaches that man must exercise faith by believing and also repenting. The question is whether he does so in cooperation with God.

Those who believe in the DoG believe that God unilaterally breathes life into a dead heart (Ezk. 36:26). Man is dead in sin (Eph. 2:1) and lacks the desire and capability to comprehend spiritual truth (1 Cor. 2:14). It took an act of God to regenerate the heart (Eph. 2:4, 5). After this work of God is accomplished, then man repents and believes. Therefore, salvation is wholly of God. It is received by man, but man has no part in the saving of his soul.

That's a simple explanation without any in depth exegesis. Others can debate it; I'm just stirring the pot. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[kyredneck]

Earth, Wind and Fire posted this statement on another thread:

"You mean take the human element out of it & let God be God? A very wise Pastor once told me the following, " If man contributes any essential part towards his salvation, he effectively becomes his own savior" .... I believe that to be the clear point of demarcation."
__________________

My question is this, if man contibutes no part towards his own salvation, then why does the Bible instruct us to repent? Believe?

If the human element is taken completely away, then what is the need for evangelism? churches? or even prayer?

If man has no control over his own fate, then why even worry about eternity? After all, if it is solely up to God, how can we change it?

Can someone explain this to me without calling me ignorant, or saying that I am evil (in darkeness)? (which means you Luke, you are not invited to respond)

John

I would modify EWF's statement with the insertion of a single word:

"You mean take the human element out of it & let God be God? A very wise Pastor once told me the following, " If man contributes any essential part towards his eternal salvation, he effectively becomes his own savior" .... I believe that to be the clear point of demarcation."

We are totally passive in our eternal redemption, but we have everything to do with our obedience to the gospel from which comes the temporal aspects of our salvation.

 

[Jeremiah2911]

Earth, Wind and Fire posted this statement on another thread:

"You mean take the human element out of it & let God be God? A very wise Pastor once told me the following, " If man contributes any essential part towards his salvation, he effectively becomes his own savior" .... I believe that to be the clear point of demarcation."
__________________

My question is this, if man contibutes no part towards his own salvation, then why does the Bible instruct us to repent? Believe?

John, to me the DoG, or Calvinism, are the most Scriptural way of explaining the Sovereignty of God in all things, especially Salvation. Having been on this Board for a few short months, I see a lot of arguing over things I really don't understand the purpose of argument, except some people like to argue The Scriptures tell us to Repent [and you think, as many of us did at one time, that this is a work of man]--let me ask you a question--why doesn't everybody? Why wouldn't everybody take advantage of eternal life through Christ our Lord? Well we might say, hardness of heart--question is, can a man make his own heart unhardened? This is a point of contention--I don't think he can....This Scripture kind of answers all three questions you have:

2 Timothy 2:24-26 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Since we don't know who are the elect, we keep preaching and teaching, and praying that God will "give them repentance".....Repentance, faith--these come from God--man or his emotions can't drum those up successfully, although since the days of Finney many preachers have tried, and they may think they have success, only to figure out they are building the Church of the Tares!

If the human element is taken completely away, then what is the need for evangelism? churches? or even prayer?

If we don't take the human element away, how can salvation be eternally secure? Why evangelism, church, prayer? John Wesley [either Wesley or Moody] said since God didn't put a yellow stripe down the back of his elect, he would go on preaching to all men --we are doing the Work of God as His elect, for the elect

If man has no control over his own fate, then why even worry about eternity? After all, if it is solely up to God, how can we change it?

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)
There is no need to worry about things which we have no control..We can't change God's Will, but how do we know what it is?...Keep studying the Bible, and trust in Him

 

[InTheLight]

It took an act of God to regenerate the heart (Eph. 2:4, 5). After this work of God is accomplished, then man repents and believes.

So the sequence is:

God regenerates man's heart
Man repents
Man believes

Yet in all my 40 years of reading the Bible and studying scripture I've never actually read that sequence in the text. Curious....

 

[psalms109:31]

This is learned by nature the more we work in the land the more the crops are produced. The Holy Spirit makes it grow, but we are the planters , sowers, and waterers. God has given everything we need to straighten up our own mess. The Holy Spirit in us and the word of life for the dead. That we have become streams of living water because of Christ.

 

[Herald]

So the sequence is:

God regenerates man's heart
Man repents
Man believes

Yet in all my 40 years of reading the Bible and studying scripture I've never actually read that sequence in the text. Curious....

Whether repentance comes before faith, or vice versa, has stoked many a debate. Repentance is a turning from sin. That it plays a part in salvation is established in Scripture.

Acts 11:18 "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life." (emphasis mine)

Believing, by faith, is also scriptural.

Acts 16:30-31 30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Regeneration? You actually quoted one of the passages I would use to defend this view (Eph. 2:4, 5). The other was in my post; Ezekiel 36:26. There are more, but these two make my point.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So the sequence is:

God regenerates man's heart
Man repents
Man believes

Yet in all my 40 years of reading the Bible and studying scripture I've never actually read that sequence in the text. Curious....

Not so curious if you consider the sequence in relation to experience & how natural it flows. 1st your a rank sinner & you really dont believe in God dispite what you tell people (because your guilty of the sin of unbelief) so your slated for hell. (2) then God changes your heart....He literally makes you to see your sins. So now you have sight to see all. And you also develop this illusive thing called a consious! (3) So the scales fall away & with the help of the HS your reborn....now where & how that happens is a mystery but Christ does make reference to it, doesnt HE! At least that has been my experience (believe it or not).:godisgood:

 

[Old Union Brother]

Not so curious if you consider the sequence in relation to experience & how natural it flows. 1st your a rank sinner & you really dont believe in God dispite what you tell people (because your guilty of the sin of unbelief) so your slated for hell. (2) then God changes your heart....He literally makes you to see your sins. So now you have sight to see all. And you also develop this illusive thing called a consious! (3) So the scales fall away & with the help of the HS your reborn....now where & how that happens is a mystery but Christ does make reference to it, doesnt HE! At least that has been my experience (believe it or not).:godisgood:

And a wonderful experience it is!:thumbs:

Salvation is of the Lord not man

(Jon 2:9) But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.
(Psa 3:8) Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah.

(Psa 37:39) But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble.

(Psa 37:40) And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him

 

[preachinjesus]

One can point out that though the justifying act of salvation is done through God's mercy it is given to those who believe and not forced onto those who resist.

 

[Tom Butler]

Let me add another scripture passage.

Philippians 1:29

or to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

So, Paul says here that belief (or faith) is a gift, and in his first letter to Timothy(2:25) that repentance is a gift.

I dispute the notion that repentance and faith constitute works. These are exercises of the mind and heart. They are similar to mental assent. It's sorta like "Amen-ing" the preacher.

As I've said before, what God requires for salvation he also provides.

 

[psalms109:31]

There was a farmer who said God provide the seeds and water, I'll just throw the seeds out and let God take care of it.

A few sproted here and there, but he ended up losing the farm.

The other farmer took over it and he tilled the ground planted the seeds at the depth they needed to be , he irregated and took care of it.

He yeilded a great crop.

The man came back and said God blessed you in that crop. He said you should of seen when God alone was taking care of it.


Jesus was granted to be a life to Himself, but He lived for the Father.

Having been granted something does not mean you have to unless you don't think that the young rich ruler resisted God.

 

[InTheLight]

Whether repentance comes before faith, or vice versa, has stoked many a debate. Repentance is a turning from sin. That it plays a part in salvation is established in Scripture.

Repentance is a change of mind about God which brings about turning from sin. Cause and effect.

Regeneration? You actually quoted one of the passages I would use to defend this view (Eph. 2:4, 5). The other was in my post; Ezekiel 36:26. There are more, but these two make my point.

Ez. 36 is about the nation of Israel. You are using it to symbolically apply it to individuals in New Testament times.

 

[Herald]

Repentance is a change of mind about God which brings about turning from sin. Cause and effect.

Repentance is determined by its context. In the context of salvation it is most definitely a turning from sin.

Ez. 36 is about the nation of Israel. You are using it to symbolically apply it to individuals in New Testament times.

If I replicate your logic then I have to discount the Messianic references in the Old Testament as only applying to the circumstances occurring during that time. Ezekiel 36 is considered by most Christians as prophecy concerning the coming New Covenant.

 

[Iconoclast]

My question is this, if man contibutes no part towards his own salvation, then why does the Bible instruct us to repent? Believe?


All men are responsible to repent and believe

If the human element is taken completely away, then what is the need for evangelism? churches? or even prayer?

the human element is that we as dead and fallen spiritually and need God to save us as we cannot save ourself.
God ordains to save a multitude of persons and he has a plan and purpose of how to accomplish it. He does not just make salvation possible....He actual saves actual people......He has chosen to use means to accomplish this eternal plan. The church, evangelism , preaching and teaching, by pastors and teachers are all used by God for this.

If man has no control over his own fate, then why even worry about eternity? After all, if it is solely up to God, how can we change it?

Like in the day of Noah.....the door was open until the time came when God closed the door on the ark. Men were warned of judgement to come ,but refused God's remedy. All men who hear of judgement to come and offered the saving blood of the cross in the gospel are fully responsible to come.
The doctrine does not prevent them from coning to Jesus...sin does.
The doctrine tells us...that God has acted to save a multitude who despite this natural born rebellion will be made willing to come.
John......we who believe in the DoG see both sides of this issue as being the clear teaching of scripture. When you study it take time to examine each issue,,one issue at a time.
Can someone explain this to me without calling me ignorant, or saying that I am evil (in darkeness)? (which means you Luke, you are not invited to respond)

John

Hello John,
You profess to be a christian and we take you at your profession as a brother in Christ. We welcome any questions that are sincere as we are all here to learn and help others.
If you come out on the attack so to speak.....there will be a response as it as this is a debate/discussion format.
John ... you have asked a series of good questions . The truth delights to be investigated.
There are several good books written to explain in detail these teachings in a way that cannot be biblical refuted.;
http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/a-baptist-catechism-with-commentary/18626506
http://books.google.com/books/about/Redemption_Accomplished_and_Applied.html?id=la_y6y3EnpcC
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0877843716/?tag=baptis04-20

John.....any and all of these three books are extremely well written, readable, and I believe them to be seamless and irrefutable...all chritians should have these in thier libraries. they are totally Christ centered and over flowing with scrioture.:thumbs::thumbs:

 

[webdog]

Repentance is determined by its context. In the context of salvation it is most definitely a turning from sin.

Actually it is turning to God from self in the context of salvation.

If I replicate your logic then I have to discount the Messianic references in the Old Testament as only applying to the circumstances occurring during that time. Ezekiel 36 is considered by most Christians as prophecy concerning the coming New Covenant.

No, you have to apply a proper hermeneutic and let the context determine how it should be applied. InTheLight is correct, the context of Ez. 36 is the nation of Israel.

 

[Jeremiah2911]

There was a farmer who said God provide the seeds and water, I'll just throw the seeds out and let God take care of it.

A few sproted here and there, but he ended up losing the farm.

The other farmer took over it and he tilled the ground planted the seeds at the depth they needed to be , he irregated and took care of it.

He yeilded a great crop.

The man came back and said God blessed you in that crop. He said you should of seen when God alone was taking care of it.


Jesus was granted to be a life to Himself, but He lived for the Father.

Having been granted something does not mean you have to unless you don't think that the young rich ruler resisted God.

I love a good story, but I hope you don't truly base your opinion of freewill on a few lines out of a Church bulletin [which is where I've seen the story] --in this illustration, man gets the glory, --if man has any part in the salvation process, how does he keep it? About the rich young ruler, well, this is where Romans 9 comes in [face it, hard to swallow it no matter how many times we read it]--remember, the rich young ruler came to Jesus [on his own] and rejected His message--wonder why? Jesus gave him a works based salvation plan, the young man thought he was saved by his works, and then Jesus went one better and hit him in the wallet and off he went....is your salvation based on works? Then this illustration doesn't work....God bless

 

[psalms109:31]

Romans 4:
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

I am doing what God has prepared me in advance to do.

Do you really think i am working for my own salvation in that story?

I do not believe in freewill, we only can go the direction that God placed before us the wide road or the norrow, you can't choose your own path apart from the word of life provided you.

God always gets the glory, Do you think man can take it from Him? The wages of my sin is death, it is my cost, not belief, not faith, not repentance, but death. That before the word we were heading to destruction and God gives a way out Jesus. You can by His word continue headed to condemnation. Through the words of Jesus God places life and death before us so believe in Jesus and live.

I can't pay that debt, so I have to trust in the finish work of Christ. He gets the glory.

It is God who say's that he believed God and He credited him righteouseness, the only hope I have is His word, not what I can do. It is God who credits not me.

This is the young rich ruler and his calling.

Luke 18
22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

You can believe what you want, but he was called to follow Jesus.

 

[WWJDKID]

[snipped - personal attack]