The Nature of Inclinations

[lakeside]

HP: I know you are asking Biblicist, but here would be my take. I would agree.


HP: If we are born guilty (loss of original innocence) I personally would see no real difference between your statement and the ends of the comments of Biblicist.

Babies are born completely innocent. "Sin is the transgression of the law." Babies have not nor could they be guilty in the least of transgressing any law of God period. " For such is the kingdom of heaven."

Paul explains original sin in great detail in Romans 5:12-19 and in 1 Corinthians 15:21-22.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Lakeside: Paul explains original sin in great detail in Romans 5:12-19 and in 1 Corinthians 15:21-22.

HP: I would kindly take issue with your comment. Only reading these passages with the presupposition of original sin is such a notion read into those verses.

But, give it a try. Show us how it speaks to original sin. :thumbsup:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Here might be some helpful questions for you to ask yourself concerning Scripture, to ascertain whether or not it will in all honesty support the Augustinian notion of original sin.

1. Knowing full well the many Scriptures defining sin, does the thought I see the passage insinuating or saying fit with the Scriptural definitions of sin? Can I harmonize the notion of original sin with known definitions of sin?
2. Scripture represents repentance for sin as a necessary part of receiving forgiveness for sin. Does the notion of original sin I am reading into the passage fit with repentance? Can one honestly repent for something that was absolutely unavoidable?
3.If original sin is honestly taught in this text, does it harmonize with the thought of being universal for all men in all ages? If so, why was there absolutely no place in Jewish theology for any such notion? Why did God clearly state He would never hold anyone responsible for any sin other than their own? Ezek 18
4. Is God Just? If so, how do I reconcile the notion that a Just God would punish a man in hell through no fault of his own?
5. Do the passages indicate sin is universal because of original sin or because "all have sinned."?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Here are the verses in question. What was passed upon all men and why? Original sin? I think not. Death, not original sin, passed upon all men. Why? Because of original sin? No, but rather because all have sinned. Isn't that a simple straight forward approach to this passage?

Note, death reigned from Adam... What is so hard about a clear understanding of this verse? God placed the physical man on a path towards physical death. Do we find it strange, being a physical descendant of a physical man that we should inherit his fallen and depraved physical nature?? I think not.

The passage in verse 5-6 clearly steers away from any universal language of the 'many' who were dead, as well as those that would be made alive in Christ. No universal original sin mentioned or suggested here.

Verse 18 speaks of a universal notion, but who will believe all will be saved?? The best that can be made of these verses is that sin is available for all to partake in just as salvation, both must be voluntarily entered into by acts of faith by the will. You cannot be born into Christ through no effort on your own, and you cannot enter into sin without the will choosing to do so voluntarily. The will of man is involved in sin as well as salvation. (Are you even thinking about the verse that says "nor by the will of man"? Bring that one up if you believe for a minute it would help your argument or negate the point I just made. )

Again, verse 19 does not mention a universal principle such as original sin in the least.

So this passage 'explains in detail' the notion of original sin??? Not in a million years.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Here was the other passage that is said to explain 'in detail' original sin.

What came by man? Original sin? Not according to this passage. Death came upon all men. Certainly we 'die in Adam' first physically, being a physical descendant of his, and spiritually when we partake of sin, even though the sins we partake of or not in like kind to his.
If one tries to make us all sinners as a neccessuity of being born in sin, they , to be consistent, would have to be universlaists by necessity of the way they interpret the first part of verse 22.

I don't get it. Between what words are the words, 'original sin' hidden between ?

Help us out here Lakeside, or anyone else for that matter.

 

[Gup20]

Here are the verses in question. What was passed upon all men and why? Original sin? I think not. Death, not original sin, passed upon all men. Why? Because of original sin? No, but rather because all have sinned. Isn't that a simple straight forward approach to this passage?

I agree 100% with this analysis.

Note, death reigned from Adam... What is so hard about a clear understanding of this verse? God placed the physical man on a path towards physical death. Do we find it strange, being a physical descendant of a physical man that we should inherit his fallen and depraved physical nature?? I think not.

I also agree with this in it's entirety.

The passage in verse 5-6 clearly steers away from any universal language of the 'many' who were dead, as well as those that would be made alive in Christ. No universal original sin mentioned or suggested here.

Verses 15 and 16 actually draw a distinction saying that the free gift is NOT like the offense. This shows us that there are differences between Adam and the way death was propagated and Jesus and the way life is propagated.

Verse 18 speaks of a universal notion, but who will believe all will be saved?? The best that can be made of these verses is that sin is available for all to partake in just as salvation, both must be voluntarily entered into by acts of faith by the will. You cannot be born into Christ through no effort on your own, and you cannot enter into sin without the will choosing to do so voluntarily. The will of man is involved in sin as well as salvation. (Are you even thinking about the verse that says "nor by the will of man"? Bring that one up if you believe for a minute it would help your argument or negate the point I just made. )

Verse 18 begins with "therefore" and so it is qualified by the previous verse, verse 17 when it says "they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ." So when verse 18 speaks of the "free gift" it is qualified by verse 17 as going to those who receive the gift of righteousness through Jesus Christ, though verse 18 does indicate that it is offered to all men.

Again, verse 19 does not mention a universal principle such as original sin in the least.

So this passage 'explains in detail' the notion of original sin??? Not in a million years.

I agree.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Gup: Verse 18 begins with "therefore" and so it is qualified by the previous verse, verse 17 when it says "they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ." So when verse 18 speaks of the "free gift" it is qualified by verse 17 as going to those who receive the gift of righteousness through Jesus Christ, though verse 18 does indicate that it is offered to all men.

HP: Gup, do all have the opportunity to receive the gospel message? Just curious as to what you believe.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

HP: Does this verse state in any way shape or form that all men have the opportunity to hear and respond to the gospel, or is it simply stating that the free gift 'came upon' or was 'accomplished for the sake of' all men?

 

[The Biblicist]

Here are the verses in question. What was passed upon all men and why? Original sin? I think not. Death, not original sin, passed upon all men. Why? Because of original sin? No, but rather because all have sinned. Isn't that a simple straight forward approach to this passage?

In other words, you have Adam simply passing down a bad example and all who follow that bad example get the same consequence! In other words, the fall is repeated from man to man from generation to generation and the fallen nature is a consequence of an "upright" heart simply choosing to follow Adam's example and thus meriting Adam's problem.

Sorry, but if that is your interpretation of this text, you do not pass go and you do not collect $200.00.

Paul's argument is very simple and clear. Paul identifies Christ as the "second Adam" (1 Cor. 15) and treats both men as representative heads of those each represents in them by natural birth versus new birth.

Adam acted as the representative of the human race and what he did actually affected all his posterity.

Paul is not saying "By one man's bad example all men were made subject to a bad example." He is saying by "one man's offence many were MADE SINNERS". He is not saying "by one man's offence many were POTENTIALLY made sinners any more than he is saying by one man's POTENTIAL offence.

They were not only "made sinners" but they came under condemnation due to "one man's offence." That is precisely why Jesus said that unbelievers in Christ were CONDEMNED ALREADY. That is why Paul said that formerly to new birth they were "BY NATURE" children of wrath and "children of disobedience" NOT FATHERS of disobedience! The Disobedience in Adam produced children of disobedience.

You do not even have an elementary understanding of this text or the context. I have observed the MENTAL GYNASTICS you must go through and lead everyone else through to deny the obvious meanngs of a plethora of texts that plainly condemn your interpretations.

 

[Gup20]

HP: Gup, do all have the opportunity to receive the gospel message? Just curious as to what you believe.

Salvation is available to all, yes. But all will not accept it.

Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.​

But we know that many will not be justified.

Mat 7:14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.​

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Gup, but will all, or have all men, from the dawn of creation, had the opportuunity to hear and respond to the gospel?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: You do not even have an elementary understanding of this text or the context. I have observed the MENTAL GYNASTICS you must go through and lead everyone else through to deny the obvious meanngs of a plethora of texts that plainly condemn your interpretations.

HP: I liked your posts much better when you at least tried to back up your comments with reason.:thumbsup:

 

[lakeside]

Heavenly Pilgrim,man was not created sinful by nature. God created man entirely holy and sinless. Our sinful condition is not the result of God’s creative work, but is a historical consequence of our abuse of free will. To say that God should have created us "for the most part holy and not sinful" fails to do justice to the true freedom and consequences of free will.

Free will means that even though our first parents were entirely sinless and enjoyed the life of original grace, they were still capable of choosing to be otherwise and forfeiting of the life of grace—and that’s just what they did. We, their offspring, are conceived and born bereft of this life, spiritually dead, in original sin. Even when we are spiritually reborn , we remain affected by concupiscence or tendencies toward sin as a result of having been conceived in original sin.

However, all of this is the result not of some defect in God’s creative work, but of the self-chosen circumstances into which our race fell in the very beginning.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Lakeside, I appreciate your position but telling me what you believe and establishing it via supportive evidence is yet another. :thumbsup:

 

[lakeside]

Lakeside, I appreciate your position but telling me what you believe and establishing it via supportive evidence is yet another. :thumbsup:

Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 - if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus in the Bible? Because it also washes away original sin, we are to ask for forgiveness of the sins that we personally commit, baptism removes original sin.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Lakeside: Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 - if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus in the Bible? Because it also washes away original sin, we are to ask for forgiveness of the sins that we personally commit, baptism removes original sin.

HP: Belief is not all that is needed to be saved. One must first repent.

As for baptism washing away original sin, where is the slightest evidence of that?? Certainly the passages you mentioned do not establish any such notion.

 

[lakeside]

HP: Belief is not all that is needed to be saved. One must first repent.

As for baptism washing away original sin, where is the slightest evidence of that?? Certainly the passages you mentioned do not establish any such notion.

Isaiah 43: 27; "Your first father sinned, and your mediators transgressed against me. "


Gen. 2:17 - the day you eat of that tree, you shall die. Adam and Eve ate of the tree, and they spiritually died. Some Protestant communities ignore or deny the reality of original sin. But if there is no original sin, then we do not need a Savior either. The horrors of our world testify to the reality of original sin.

Gen. 3:14-19 - God's punishment for eating of the tree was cursing satan, increasing women's pain in childbirth, and condemning man to toil and labor for his whole life.

Job 14:1,4 - man that is born of woman is of few days and full of trouble. Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? All humans are afflicted with original sin, and this includes babies as well. This is why the Catholic Church has baptized babies for 2,000 years.

Psalm 51:5 - I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. We have inherited Adam's sin from the moment of our conception. This is why babies need baptism – to wash away the original sin inherited from Adam and Eve.

Rom. 5:12 - sin came into the world through one man, Adam, and death came through this sin. This sin affects all people, men and women, babies and adults. Through the merits of Jesus Christ, we have the sacrament of baptism to wash away the sin that came through Adam.

Rom. 5:14 - death reigned from Adam to Moses, born from Adam's original sin. This is a mystery we do not fully understand, but we must all acknowledge our propensity toward evil and our need of God.

Rom. 5:16 - the judgment following one single trespass brought condemnation for all. This means all have inherited the sin of Adam, and all must be washed clean of this sin in the waters of baptism.

Rom. 5:19 - by one man's disobedience many were made sinners. Original sin is passed on as part of the human condition, and only God in the flesh could atone for our sins by the eternal sacrifice of Himself. Through this sacrifice, God has re-opened the doors to heaven, and through baptism, we are once again made children of God.

1 Cor. 15:21 - for by one man came death. In Adam, all die. In Christ, the new Adam, all now may live.

Eph. 2:1-3 - we were all dead through sin and all lived in the passions of our flesh until Christ came to save us.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

No original sin in those verses, and certainly none that say that baptism washes away original sin.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

1 Cor. 15:21 - for by one man came death. In Adam, all die. In Christ, the new Adam, all now may live.

KJV: Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

HP: I do not know for certain what translation Lakeside is using in the first quote above, but it never the less amazes me how self serving some translations are. With most theological circles holding to original sin they by all means left the 'all die" alone, yet for some strange reason they change the part about "shall all be made alive," to :all MAY now live."

Possibly a slight change to some, none the less, an obvious change from the majority text followed by the KJV. Now if I chose to change the first part of the text to 'in Adam all may now die" I bet the howl would rise and the personal attacks would descend on me, charging me with "twisting the Word of God. My question is why the silence on the obvious 'twisting' or changing the version that Lakeside used???

 

[lakeside]

Heavenly Pilgrim, This is how it is explained in "The New American Bible"
1 Cor. 15:21 For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead came also through a human being, v 22- For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life, v23 but each one in proper order:Christ the firstfruits; then, at his coming, those who belong to Christ...
15:21-22: Our human existence, both natural and supernatural, is corporate, involves solidarity. In Adam.... in Christ: the Hebrew word 'adam in Genesis is both a common noun for mankind and a proper noun for the first man. Paul here presents Adam as at least a literary type of Christ; the parallelism and contrast between them will be developed further in vv 45-49 and in Rom. 5: 12-21.