IF believer In Doctrines of Grace, Why baptists and NOT presby?

There are two basic reason why I am a Baptist.

First, historically Baptists have a rich heritage in their embracing of the Doctrines of Grace. Until the 20th Century, our numbers were far greater. People like John Bunyan, Isaac Bauckus, John Leland and Charles Spurgeon were all great Baptists who held to the Doctrines of Grace. Even our confessions were mostly Calvinistic.

Secondly, Presbyterians were traditionally Calvinistic but so were other groups. Congregationalists and other groups were Calvinistic throughout history. Presbyterianism denotes a specific church government and includes paedo-baptism. I do not hold to either belief.

 

Here is a classic example of the error that so many on the board make, i.e., equating a theological doctrine, Calvinism in this case, that merely lays out a logical order for soteriology and turning it into a both a complete over-arching belief system and more, a denominational stance.

 

I'm a Baptist because God predestined me to be such.

I'll have to say that some Presbyterian churches are much more solid doctrinely than some non-cal Baptist churches.

The logical end of non-cal, anti-cal, free-will theology would land them in the WOF camp, where if man doesn't allow God "in" by choice then He cannot do a thing. There have been some here who have proposed this fallacious doctrine.

So my point is, since they believe this, why not just become WOF/Charismatic?

 

The more I thought about this question, the more I thought this is similar to asking the other side, "why don't you join the Methodists or Wesleyans?"

 

We could also say that the logical end to Calvinism is that nothing matters because God has already predestined everything.
I think the truth lies somewhere in between.

Because they are heretics.

 

Because ecclesiology is different from soteriology.

 

They are wrong... Calvinism does not equal Calvin, nor does it equal Presbyterian, etc. That is a false dichotomy. As many Baptists have been Calvinistic as have anyone else in the history of the church, and current buzz word aside ("Calvinism") the Doctrines of Grace predate Calvin by, oh, 1500 years or so. :laugh:

From Article III of the 1644 London Confession:

Doesn't get much more Calvinistic than that!

Especially interesting is their take on this:

This comes right to the core of the argument that I make often on the board. God is not divided! He is sound, whole, and of one mind, knowing all things past, present, and future, and by His holy nature, complete, lacking nothing, even though it might seem to us by interpretation through our own experiential eyes otherwise.

Simply stated, God is God and nothing less, always and forever. :thumbsup:

 

I think people are missing the very obvious answer to the OP:

1. Because be believe in Believers Baptism as opposed to paedobaptism. ("Baptist")

2. Because we do not believe in a Presbytry that oversees multiple churches (Presbyterian).

How much clearer could it be?

 

Also, Regarding What exactly is "calvinism" there are some presbyterians who would say that a reformed Baptist is not really a true calvinist, niether are they truly "reformed" since they do not baptize babies, hold to a presbyterian ecclesiology, and might not hold to covenant theology. For them, it all goes together.

Also, (we'll call this "also #2): I would think that a biblically consisitent Charismatic would need to be fairly calvinistic if he believed that God gave the gifts of tongues and prophesy, rather than those gifts being invoked by whoever had the right techniques.

 

I hear what you're saying Amy.

The logical end of Calvinism is that the theology is solid and shows forth the truth of the Sriptures. For example of comparison, Christianity is truth, yet, there are those who come in and distort that truth. The same thing can happen in any theology, a person can corrupt it. Thus I believe "hyper calvinism" to be false teaching, and is not representative of truth, but is cunningly deceptive, sounding reasonable to man to believe it.

WOF/Charismatics, yes, they are heretical. The major point of the heresy is in the fact that they teach Gods Sovereignty is bound until man allows God to work via belief, otherwise He is helpless to work. The error stems from this major premise: a false understanding and teaching of faith. Several share this same false teaching concerning faith within some Baptist churches.

God is not helpless "until man" exercises faith. He is instead Sovereign, and does as He wills to do. He is not activated like a bellhop by "mans" faith. This is one reason the Scriptures teach true faith is a gift of God. True faith lies within an object, in this case God, and is not merely subjective and inherent, but is instead objective, from God. When man thinks it is inherent, which is in itself error, and when this false premise is taken to extreme, in that it is "magic" and has some kind of "power" within itself, limiting Gods abilities, is false teaching. Instead, real faith comes from God, via His Word. Man does not get the credit in any way.

Keep in mind, I am not saying that you teach this, as I know you do not, yet there are some that would teach God cannot do a thing "until man" exercises faith.

 

Look, if you're going to come in here and offer a simple, accurate answer to the OP, then you apparently aren't BB material. :laugh::laugh:

You must fight and argue and call everyone else a heretic. That's the BB way! :laugh:

 

You are correct, that is the dividing ground.

 

I would take this a step further and say that they believe that God must obey them! I have heard some of their preachers say that God is "obligated" to do whatever they ask.

 

:thumbsup:

Exactly, according to the faith "within" them. These are taught to "muster up" this faith. This all goes back to the wrong view, and unscriptural view of faith. I heard Dr. Lutzer say something like this today, "God is not simply a bigger one of us."

 

Refreshingly candid statements from "Founders" founder Ernest Reisinger, describing Grace Baptist Church, Carlisle, Pa. (from his autobiography):

 

And incisive observations from his brother John Reisinger:

http://solochristo.com/theology/Church/reiwh.htm

http://www.soundofgrace.com/jgr/index042.htm

 

And I thought we were getting along swimmingly! :laugh:

Just to be clear- I only assault things as heresy that ARE heresy.

And all of us are SUPPOSED to do that.