is the NEW nature In Christ the Holy Spirit Indwelling us?

[freeatlast]

Would you agree that Jesus is the only man to have experienced the following?

(1) And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. John 1:14, Matt. 1:25, 1 John 4:2,3 Rom. 1:3 Gal. 3:16

(2) the last Adam (man) a quickening spirit.
Col. 1:18, Acts 13:33 Acts 2:33 Titus 3:5

I have no clue what you are asking in regards to those verses so I canot give you an answer.

Howbeit that not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

After the resurrection.

Would you also agree that Jesus the Christ is the only man only to have had the natural (flesh nature) and then the spirit (spiritual)?

Could these be construed as two natures? One pre resurrection and the other post resurrection?

As to this question I suppose some could say the right foot is one nature and the left the other, and hold what we have two natures if they wanted. However if you are tring to suggest we have two natures that would be incorrect.

 

[percho]

Would you agree that Jesus is the only man to have experienced the following?

(1) And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. John 1:14, Matt. 1:25, 1 John 4:2,3 Rom. 1:3 Gal. 3:16

(2) the last Adam (man) a quickening spirit.
Col. 1:18, Acts 13:33 Acts 2:33 Titus 3:5

I have no clue what you are asking in regards to those verses so I canot give you an answer.

Howbeit that not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

After the resurrection.

Would you also agree that Jesus the Christ is the only man only to have had the natural (flesh nature) and then the spirit (spiritual)?

Could these be construed as two natures? One pre resurrection and the other post resurrection?

As to this question I suppose some could say the right foot is one nature and the left the other, and hold what we have two natures if they wanted. However if you are tring to suggest we have two natures that would be incorrect.

Once again free I no where said we have two natures.

There are only two natures man can exist in.
The natural flesh and blood nature that the first man Adam was created as and all born of woman come into the world as which cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The first man Adam was the type (figure) of him to come.
Jesus the Christ the only begotten son of God born of woman came just as the first man Adam was created. He, the Christ came by the water (amniotomy) and by the blood (virgin birth). He, the Christ came as flesh and blood. That was his nature and he died. End of story unless God the Father who beget him intervenes. God the Father raised him from the dead Gal. 1:1 and gives him life in himself John 5:26 quickened life John 5:21 quickening spirit life 1 Cor 15:45 last part

You freeatlast are flesh and blood. That is your nature.

You have the Holy Spirit of promise (a begotten child of God, an heir) that you might be a partaker of the divine nature 2 Peter 1:4 that comes by resurrection 1 Peter 1:3 At that time you will be a born child of God Luke 20:36 unable to sin 1 John 3:9

Your nature will then be divine, incorruptible, spirit.
That which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.

That is if the meaning of is, is.

 

[Robert Snow]

Look @ verse nine. Here, John is referring to the "inner man", and not our physical body. What has been born of God(born again/born from above) is the soul, and the flesh is still in it's condemned flesh. This soul, once the Father has cleansed it, can not sin, because it is made perfect. It is clothed in the righteousness of God, via the Lamb's precious blood. The physical body didn't obtain this, and is still in rebellion towards God.

Exactly. It's the outer man that sins, not the seed, the new man, God implants in the Christian.

Now, whenever the physical body begins to stray, the soul, through the working of the Spirit, brings this man back under subjection. If you see someone who continually does the same sinful deeds, you'd best mark him/her with an "x". The tree is known by it's fruit, and we are known by our works. If someone continues to "hit the bars", chase the girls, drink all the time, tell tall tales, curse, are these fruit from a good tree? I trow not. That is what I mean. I am not stating we don't stumble, neither live a life of sinless perfection. However, we won't continue making the same mistakes over, and over, and over, and over........

Sorry, but you don't know if a person has problem with a sin over and over. I've seen it happen. However, this fleshly Christian is miserably and God works conviction in his life. I had a pastor ask me one time how I thought David had so much trouble in his life, yet was a man after God's own heart. I said I didn't know. He said he thought that David was a good repenter. He was ready to come back to God.

If you don't think people who come to Christ can have reoccurring problems, go to the missions in the inter cities and talk to the staff and some of the residents. I'm not saying that everyone who say they belong to God is a Christian, but if you think it is as simple as freeatlast seems to claim, I believe you are wrong.

 

[convicted1]

Exactly. It's the outer man that sins, not the seed, the new man, God implants in the Christian.

Brother Robert, the "new man" is the soul, and it can not sin because it has been made perfect. Do you agree with this? The flesh did not receive salvation, and therefore, it still is at enmity with God. Do you agree?

Sorry, but you don't know if a person has problem with a sin over and over. I've seen it happen. However, this fleshly Christian is miserably and God works conviction in his life. I had a pastor ask me one time how I thought David had so much trouble in his life, yet was a man after God's own heart. I said I didn't know. He said he thought that David was a good repenter. He was ready to come back to God.

You are correct, I don't know about them, just about me. When God changed me(saved me by His Grace and mercy), my desires changed. I no longer wanted to do the things I once did. I became a new creature, with new desires. I was called out of darkness into His marvellous Light. Everyone saved, must have this take place. If there is no visable change in one's life, I am afraid there wasn't really a change made.

If you don't think people who come to Christ can have reoccurring problems, go to the missions in the inter cities and talk to the staff and some of the residents. I'm not saying that everyone who say they belong to God is a Christian, but if you think it is as simple as freeatlast seems to claim, I believe you are wrong.

People go to Christ because they have problems(also He must draw them first, btw), and know they can't handle them of their own accord. I knew I was a sinner, and to be saved, I went to Him, and begged, pleaded, cried, sought for His mercy. He had what I needed. He changed me, and not I that changed me. If the former drug addict is continually "shooting up", the former drunk on the corner is staggering around all the time, the former whoremonger is going to the .........(you get the idea), the former cocaine addict is still snorting his/her paycheck away week to week, chances are, they aren't where they say they are. A tree is known by it's fruit. These aren't the fruit of a good tree.

 

[percho]

Well, Brother Robert, I will do my best to support my claim with the Word of God. First, let's look at the scritpure that has been debated:

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


Look @ verse nine. Here, John is referring to the "inner man", and not our physical body. What has been born of God(born again/born from above) is the soul, and the flesh is still in it's condemned flesh. This soul, once the Father has cleansed it, can not sin, because it is made perfect. It is clothed in the righteousness of God, via the Lamb's precious blood. The physical body didn't obtain this, and is still in rebellion towards God.

Now, whenever the physical body begins to stray, the soul, through the working of the Spirit, brings this man back under subjection. If you see someone who continually does the same sinful deeds, you'd best mark him/her with an "x". The tree is known by it's fruit, and we are known by our works. If someone continues to "hit the bars", chase the girls, drink all the time, tell tall tales, curse, are these fruit from a good tree? I trow not. That is what I mean. I am not stating we don't stumble, neither live a life of sinless perfection. However, we won't continue making the same mistakes over, and over, and over, and over........

Does the following describe the ultimate birth of the living souls who have died? That is the dead in Christ, you know Larry, Curly and Mo just to give them names?

Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

From verse 35. But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

Is that world (age) and the kingdom of God that flesh and blood cannot inherit the same? Is it into this kingdom, those who are alive and remain will not precede the dead in Christ, because God will raise them from the dead, just as he did Jesus and bring them with Jesus and the alive into the kingdom?

Be a Berean.

 

[convicted1]

Does the following describe the ultimate birth of the living souls who have died? That is the dead in Christ, you know Larry, Curly and Mo just to give them names?

Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

From verse 35. But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

Is that world (age) and the kingdom of God that flesh and blood cannot inherit the same? Is it into this kingdom, those who are alive and remain will not precede the dead in Christ, because God will raise them from the dead, just as he did Jesus and bring them with Jesus and the alive into the kingdom?

Be a Berean.

Well, in regards to eternal life, our soul obtains it the very point the blood cleanses our soul. We don't garner eternal life when we get to heaven, but rather, we go to heaven because we HAVE eternal life now.

The parable of the man who came into the marriage supper did not have a wedding garment on, and he was cast out into the outer darkness(lake of fire). We go to the marriage supper because we have that wedding garment on now. Our soul has passed from death unto life via the blood, is given the wedding garment, and is now ready for when the Lord returns.

 

[Van]

I have not read this thread, but my quick take on the OP is simple,
after we are born again, we have been made spiritually alive, together with Christ. Now I know many folks hold different views on "soul" and "spirit" but my view is the soul or base or core nature of our individual human spirit is changed when we are born again. But we are still "clothed" in the corrupt flesh with its fleshly lusts and desires. It wants comfort and security in this life. But also dwelling with us, is our helper, the Holy Spirit which guides us toward truth and maturity.

In summary a born again person has three entities or facets, ourselves, children of God and going to heaven no matter what, our mortal flesh, with its "adamic" old man nature which tempts us toward comfort and security with its fleshly nature, and our indwelt Holy Spirit which we can quench or bring to a flame through obedience.

 

[freeatlast]

I have not read this thread, but my quick take on the OP is simple,
after we are born again, we have been made spiritually alive, together with Christ. Now I know many folks hold different views on "soul" and "spirit" but my view is the soul or base or core nature of our individual human spirit is changed when we are born again. But we are still "clothed" in the corrupt flesh with its fleshly lusts and desires. It wants comfort and security in this life. But also dwelling with us, is our helper, the Holy Spirit which guides us toward truth and maturity.

In summary a born again person has three entities or facets, ourselves, children of God and going to heaven no matter what, our mortal flesh, with its "adamic" old man nature which tempts us toward comfort and security with its fleshly nature, and our indwelt Holy Spirit which we can quench or bring to a flame through obedience.

I was right there with you until you called the flesh " old man nature" and " fleshly nature." We have one nature not two. While our flesh is not redeemed neither it part of our nature.

 

[JesusFan]

I was right there with you until you called the flesh " old man nature" and " fleshly nature." We have one nature not two. While our flesh is not redeemed neither it part of our nature.

you do know that even paul after salvation still had sin principle in him, old nature, and that is why we at times fulfill its lusts, and not what the HS desires for us!

 

[freeatlast]

you do know that even paul after salvation still had sin principle in him, old nature, and that is why we at times fulfill its lusts, and not what the HS desires for us!

No the bible does not teach Paul had a sin nature after his conversion.

 

[percho]

When does a man inherit the kingdom of God?
Does he inherit the kingdom of God before or after the resurrection?
Being we are heirs (not yet inheritors) of God and joint heirs with Christ. Is that inclusive of the kingdom of God?
In Matthew 19, Mark 10 and Luke 18 the story of the rich young ruler. His question, Good master what must I do to (Matthew) have (Mark and Luke) inherit eternal life?
Does Jesus and or the disciples in the totality of the dialog relative to this question equate having and or inheriting eternal life to entering the kingdom of God, being saved and the world (age) to come life everlasting?
Is this the same world (age) to come brought about by the resurrection from the dead in Luke 20:35?

 

[percho]

Well, in regards to eternal life, our soul obtains it the very point the blood cleanses our soul. We don't garner eternal life when we get to heaven, but rather, we go to heaven because we HAVE eternal life now.

The parable of the man who came into the marriage supper did not have a wedding garment on, and he was cast out into the outer darkness(lake of fire). We go to the marriage supper because we have that wedding garment on now. Our soul has passed from death unto life via the blood, is given the wedding garment, and is now ready for when the Lord returns.

Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Eternal life being what you inherit.
Rom. 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].

 

[convicted1]

Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Eternal life being what you inherit.
Rom. 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].

Romans 8:16-18
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.



Here it shows us that we are heirs of God, and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. Isn't Jesus in heaven now, seated on the right hand of the Father? We have obtained eternal life now, and when He comes to gather us into the Cloud, we will then be given our glorious new spiritual body. That is the glory that shall be revealed in us. Our glory is hid in our sin cursed body(the soul being saved and the flesh isn't).

Look at Luke 15 for instance. When the Father saw His son coming, He ran and met him. He clothed him with the best robe He had. He put new shoes on his feet, put a ring on his finger, IOW, He dressed His son, and then they went in and made merry. That's the way it is with us. When God saves, He dresses them us in His righteousness. We then become joint heirs with Christ. When Christ comes, He takes us home, not to dress us up, or give us eternal life then, but rather, because we have eternal life, and have been dressed up with God's righteousness. If you do not have the wedding garment on before you die, you will be cast into the lake of fire when He comes to take His children home.

 

[convicted1]

When does a man inherit the kingdom of God?

Luke 17:20-22
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.


Well, according to Jesus, when you are born again/born from above, the Kingdom of God is placed inside of you. You inherit eternal life, and the Kingdom of God/heaven the very instant you're saved.

Does he inherit the kingdom of God before or after the resurrection?

If you don't have it before you are sown in the earth, you won't garner it when you come out.

Being we are heirs (not yet inheritors) of God and joint heirs with Christ. Is that inclusive of the kingdom of God?

No one is an heir outside of Christ. We become heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ. Christ is in heaven now, and we are joint-heirs with Him now.

In Matthew 19, Mark 10 and Luke 18 the story of the rich young ruler. His question, Good master what must I do to (Matthew) have (Mark and Luke) inherit eternal life?

The rich young ruler was looking to justify himself. Outside of Christ, we have no justification(nor did he). He is what sets us free. If the truth will set you free, then you are free indeed.

Does Jesus and or the disciples in the totality of the dialog relative to this question equate having and or inheriting eternal life to entering the kingdom of God, being saved and the world (age) to come life everlasting?

Well if you don't have eternal life when you leave this world, you will not garner it when you come forth from the ground at His glorious return in the Cloud. Again, read about the one who came to the marriage supper. He did not have on the wedding garment, and he was cast into outer darkness. The Prodigal Son, he was given his garment, ring, and shoes, and then the Father took him in and they made merry. If you don't have the garment on when you leave, you will not put one on in the morning of all mornings. The wedding garment is a sign that you belong to the Lamb, being part of His bride, New Jerusalem.

Is this the same world (age) to come brought about by the resurrection from the dead in Luke 20:35?

This is talking about the new spiritual body we will receive. It will be neither male, nor female. This body will never be stained by sin, will never experience another pain, but will be rejoicing in the glory of God for all eternity. Thank Him and praise Him that He made me ready to go when He calls my unworthy name!!! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Van]

Reply to freeatlast,

I was right there with you until you called the flesh " old man nature" and " fleshly nature." We have one nature not two. While our flesh is not redeemed neither it part of our nature.

I think we would agree if we shared the same word meanings.

To have a "nature" is not to have a separate being or person, but simply to have an influence coming from a condition or attribute. When we were born spiritually dead, our human spirit had our old adamic corrupted nature. First, our human spirit was dead meaning separated from God. Second we were corrupted spiritually, predisposed to seek ungodly treasure.

So when we are born again, two changes occur. First our corrupted spirit is altered and is no longer corrupted, we are a new creation. Second, we are no longer separated from God, we are spiritually in Christ and the Spirit of Christ is in us. However, our inner man, our human spirit is still clothed in corrupted flesh with its desires for comfort and security. This is not another person, but an influence coming from the attribute of our corrupted flesh. This influence, called by some the "presence of sin" will go away when we are raised in "glorified bodies" free at last (put intended) from our old man corrupted nature coming from the attribute of being clothed in a corrupt flesh.

 

[freeatlast]

I think we would agree if we shared the same word meanings.

To have a "nature" is not to have a separate being or person, but simply to have an influence coming from a condition or attribute. When we were born spiritually dead, our human spirit had our old adamic corrupted nature. First, our human spirit was dead meaning separated from God. Second we were corrupted spiritually, predisposed to seek ungodly treasure.

So when we are born again, two changes occur. First our corrupted spirit is altered and is no longer corrupted, we are a new creation. Second, we are no longer separated from God, we are spiritually in Christ and the Spirit of Christ is in us. However, our inner man, our human spirit is still clothed in corrupted flesh with its desires for comfort and security. This is not another person, but an influence coming from the attribute of our corrupted flesh. This influence, called by some the "presence of sin" will go away when we are raised in "glorified bodies" free at last (put intended) from our old man corrupted nature coming from the attribute of being clothed in a corrupt flesh.

Based on your definition would you say that Jesus had a sin nature until he received His glorified body as he was clothed in flesh?

 

[percho]

Based on your definition would you say that Jesus had a sin nature until he received His glorified body as he was clothed in flesh?

I would say he was in likeness of sinful flesh, made sin for us. Why?
So he could die for you and me.

That is what a living soul is. A living soul is sinful flesh. Adam was made a living soul he sinned and became sinful flesh and brought death and corruption and all have sinned that have been born of woman since Adam except Jesus yet he being in sinful flesh died.

Adam was made subject to death for God knew he would disobey. The plan for the Lamb (And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb, as a man) to be slain was in the mind of God before the man was created.

Through the Christ coming in the flesh (as a man begotten of God) God was going to destroy Satan, who has the power of death, through deceit and sin, by the death of one begotten of God and born of woman dying, the penalty (wages) of sin. Ceasing to be, dead, separated from God his Father forever.


It is through the regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit to the Lamb of God who died for you and me that Satan, death and sin is destroyed and is the manner by which the sons of Adam are saved. It is by the resurrection of the only begotten Son of God and he receiving the Promise of the Holy Spirit from God the Father that it can be given to you a living soul that will die, unless Christ returns during your life, that guarantees you that you will, like the only begotten Son, be resurrected to eternal life in the image of the Son of God.

You have eternal life, in Christ by having the Holy Spirit of promise from God.

Col. 3:3,4 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

You the once living soul, now dead will be resurrected or changed to eternal life at the appearing of Christ and his kingdom.

2 Tim 4:1 I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


convicted1 this for you also

 

[Van]

Reply to freeatlast,

Based on your definition would you say that Jesus had a sin nature until he received His glorified body as he was clothed in flesh?

Of course He did not have a sin nature, but His Divine Spirit was clothed in flesh and so He was tempted in every way we are.

Do you or do you not understand the flesh has a nature that seeks comfort and security, i.e. adverse to pain and suffering?

Paul mentions our "old man" in Romans 6:6, Ephesians 4:22 and Colossians 3:9. Something we have and must lay aside. Now the word translated "man" actually means man-face and refers to human characteristics that differ from either plants and animals on one hand and divine on the other.

What did Jesus mean when He said the spirit was willing but the flesh is weak?

What did Paul mean when he said not to make provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts?

Did not Jesus come in the likeness of sinful flesh?

 

[Van]

Quick note, Jesus did not become sin for us, He became a sin offering for us. This just another example of picking one verse, and one variant of that verse over the other variant and over the many verses that say Jesus became a sin offering.

 

[freeatlast]

Of course He did not have a sin nature, but His Divine Spirit was clothed in flesh and so He was tempted in every way we are.

Do you or do you not understand the flesh has a nature that seeks comfort and security, i.e. adverse to pain and suffering?

Paul mentions our "old man" in Romans 6:6, Ephesians 4:22 and Colossians 3:9. Something we have and must lay aside. Now the word translated "man" actually means man-face and refers to human characteristics that differ from either plants and animals on one hand and divine on the other.

What did Jesus mean when He said the spirit was willing but the flesh is weak?

What did Paul mean when he said not to make provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts?

Did not Jesus come in the likeness of sinful flesh?

Van, you cannot have it both ways. If our flesh is the sin nature then the Lord's flesh would be sin nature for Him as well. I am saying the flesh is not sin nature. We do not have a sin nature after we are saved. By the way the old man is dead. Romans 6:6-8