Did the Apostle In 1 John mean A Christian cannot Sin any longer?

[JesusFan]

In order to show salvation, how much sin was John talking about when referencing that a Christian cannot abide in sinning?

How much? How Little? was this a proof text to revel who is really saved, or an encouragement to the saints that God still accepts them even if they do sin?

 

[freeatlast]

In order to show salvation, how much sin was John talking about when referencing that a Christian cannot abide in sinning?

How much? How Little? was this a proof text to revel who is really saved, or an encouragement to the saints that God still accepts them even if they do sin?

It is not an amount, or type it is the practice. If you will stop yuor sinning you will not be under so much conviction.

 

[InTheLight]

It is not an amount, or type it is the practice.

How many sins a day does it take to become 'practicing sins'?

 

[freeatlast]

How many sins a day does it take to become 'practicing sins'?

I just told you it is not an amount (number). It is not the practice of a believer to sin. Forget about a number. It is not the practice of a believer to sin! For a believer to sin we have to go against ourselves and that is not our practice. We might sin from time to time but it is not our practice. Our practice is living righteously.

 

[preacher4truth]

How many sins a day does it take to become 'practicing sins'?

Less sins than what fale sins InTheLight. Anything more than him is "practicing" sin.

It applies ot me also, but neither do I sin every day. There is no reason to ever sin. Sadly I choose to do so from time to time which shows a lack of proper love for the Lord.

And then this:

The answer is yes I can. In fact theoretically go without sinning at all as all sin is a choice, but neither has ever happened with me. Three or 4 days is about the longest and I start over so I am working on it.

He goes days without sinning, so it must be someone other than himself posting on the BB.

 

[preacher4truth]

In order to show salvation, how much sin was John talking about when referencing that a Christian cannot abide in sinning?

How much? How Little? was this a proof text to revel who is really saved, or an encouragement to the saints that God still accepts them even if they do sin?

John is simply showing that a true believer has been changed, it is not a proof-text for Lordship Salvation. Believers still sin, and still need to confess their sins.

We as believers do sin, and we do confess our sins, and He does cleanse us from them whole we are believers. Our fellowship with God can be interrupted, as the whole entire letter is to believers, including 1 John 1:8-9.

 

[freeatlast]

In order to show salvation, how much sin was John talking about when referencing that a Christian cannot abide in sinning?

How much? How Little? was this a proof text to revel who is really saved, or an encouragement to the saints that God still accepts them even if they do sin?

Look, I understand that you are having trouble with this. That is understandable because you have been lied to for so long as well as most of the church. Let me give you an example of practice.

I have been a machinist for well over 40 years. I am given a print of what the engineer wants built along with the metal and I make it to the specifications I have been given. That is my practice and has been for over 40 years. I do not make it wrong as a practice or I would be fired because I would not really be a machinist, but rather a butcher. Errors are rare! They are not the standard (practice).A real machinist does not say within themselves well no one is perfect we all make mistakes. No! A machinist seeks for perfection even though he may not ever achieve it. He does not say well this is just a small mistake I will get it forgiven by the engineer. No! any mistake is a mistake and not acceptable to a real machinist.

The same with any occupation. You practice what is required of you or you are not what you claim to be. Now apply that to those who are saved. We practice righteousness. The lost practice sin. It is not about a number or a length of time or type of sin.It is not a 60/40 thing or even a 90/10 thing. It is what our practice is.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (Practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not (practice) righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother

Remember not everyone who says they are saved are! And not everyone who thinks they are saved are! The practice of a true believer is to not sin and from time to time we might sin, but it is not our practice and if we do sin we take it to the Lord and then continue to seek not to sin. In other words a true believer does not take sin lightly.We do not practice sinning!

 

[JesusFan]

Look, I understand that you are having trouble with this. That is understandable because you have been lied to for so long as well as most of the church. Let me give you an example of practice.

I have been a machinist for well over 40 years. I am given a print of what the engineer wants built along with the metal and I make it to the specifications I have been given. That is my practice and has been for over 40 years. I do not make it wrong as a practice or I would be fired because I would not really be a machinist, but rather a butcher. Errors are rare! They are not the standard (practice).A real machinist does not say within themselves well no one is perfect we all make mistakes. No! A machinist seeks for perfection even though he may not ever achieve it. He does not say well this is just a small mistake I will get it forgiven by the engineer. No! any mistake is a mistake and not acceptable to a real machinist.

The same with any occupation. You practice what is required of you or you are not what you claim to be. Now apply that to those who are saved. We practice righteousness. The lost practice sin. It is not about a number or a length of time or type of sin.It is not a 60/40 thing or even a 90/10 thing. It is what our practice is.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (Practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not (practice) righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother

Remember not everyone who says they are saved are! And not everyone who thinks they are saved are! The practice of a true believer is to not sin and from time to time we might sin, but it is not our practice and if we do sin we take it to the Lord and then continue to seek not to sin. In other words a true believer does not take sin lightly.We do not practice sinning!

Just curious, what bible teacher encouraged you to see the scriptures in this light?

As you seem to be preaching sinless perfection!

 

[Winman]

FAL, I like your last analogy, and I think it truly reflects a Christian's life.

What you seem to have forgotten however is that you were not always a "master" machinist. I bet that 40 years ago you thought you were a pretty good machinist, but NOW you know better.

It is the same with Christians, you do not become perfect overnight. It takes patient continuance to mature as a Christian, just as it does to be a master machinist.

I have always loved Psalm 1, I believe it applies here.

Psa 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

FAL, it takes a long time for a tree to grow, it does not spring up overnight. Be careful not to judge your fellow Christian, many are just saplings starting out. Be kind and guide them along, not harsh and condemning.

You don't expect a new machinist to be as skilled as you are, do you? Didn't think so. You help them, don't you? Be the same as a Christian.

 

[JesusFan]

FAL, I like your last analogy, and I think it truly reflects a Christian's life.

What you seem to have forgotten however is that you were not always a "master" machinist. I bet that 40 years ago you thought you were a pretty good machinist, but NOW you know better.

It is the same with Christians, you do not become perfect overnight. It takes patient continuance to mature as a Christian, just as it does to be a master machinist.

I have always loved Psalm 1, I believe it applies here.

Psa 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

FAL, it takes a long time for a tree to grow, it does not spring up overnight. Be careful not to judge your fellow Christian, many are just saplings starting out. Be kind and guide them along, not harsh and condemning.

You don't expect a new machinist to be as skilled as you are, do you? Didn't think so. You help them, don't you? Be the same as a Christian.

The biblical truth is that we are fully able to STILL commit the very same sins did before saved by god, its just that we can refuse to do them on a habitual basis as a consistant lifestyle, but still are able to "free will" greatly sin!

That is why John said in 1 John proscrption in that case is to confess/having biblical repentence, to get restored back to the Lord and move on!

 

[freeatlast]

Just curious, what bible teacher encouraged you to see the scriptures in this light?

As you seem to be preaching sinless perfection!

I find the bible sufficient if we will just believe it. Discribe what you mean by sinless perfection.

 

[freeatlast]

FAL, I like your last analogy, and I think it truly reflects a Christian's life.

What you seem to have forgotten however is that you were not always a "master" machinist. I bet that 40 years ago you thought you were a pretty good machinist, but NOW you know better.

It is the same with Christians, you do not become perfect overnight. It takes patient continuance to mature as a Christian, just as it does to be a master machinist.

I have always loved Psalm 1, I believe it applies here.

Psa 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

FAL, it takes a long time for a tree to grow, it does not spring up overnight. Be careful not to judge your fellow Christian, many are just saplings starting out. Be kind and guide them along, not harsh and condemning.

You don't expect a new machinist to be as skilled as you are, do you? Didn't think so. You help them, don't you? Be the same as a Christian.

While you are correct as time went on, but there was never a time when I practiced error as machinist even from day one of being one. The same is with any believer. No child of God once saved ever again will practice sin no matter what the depth of their sin was prior to conversion.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.

 

[Winman]

While you are correct as time went on, but there was never a time when I practiced error as machinist even from day one of being one. The same is with any believer. No child of God once saved ever again will practice sin no matter what the depth of their sin was prior to conversion.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.

So, you were a master machinist from day one? You knew it all, you had all the skills you have now? Did you make more errors starting out than you do now?

I have been playing guitar about 40 years. I promise you I am a much better player now than I was when I started. I made a lot of mistakes back then. I still make mistakes on occasion.

Your attitude is not good FAL. No one is perfect, not even you.

I have given lessons before, but I don't expect a beginner to play as well as I do. But you expect everyone to be a pro from day one. I sure wouldn't want you for a teacher.

 

[freeatlast]

So, you were a master machinist from day one? You knew it all, you had all the skills you have now? Did you make more errors starting out than you do now?

I have been playing guitar about 40 years. I promise you I am a much better player now than I was when I started. I made a lot of mistakes back then. I still make mistakes on occasion.

Your attitude is not good FAL. No one is perfect, not even you.

I have given lessons before, but I don't expect a beginner to play as well as I do. But you expect everyone to be a pro from day one. I sure wouldn't want you for a teacher.

Refer back to what I said as I was very careful in how I worded it.

 

[convicted1]

Look, I understand that you are having trouble with this. That is understandable because you have been lied to for so long as well as most of the church. Let me give you an example of practice.

I have been a machinist for well over 40 years. I am given a print of what the engineer wants built along with the metal and I make it to the specifications I have been given. That is my practice and has been for over 40 years. I do not make it wrong as a practice or I would be fired because I would not really be a machinist, but rather a butcher. Errors are rare! They are not the standard (practice).A real machinist does not say within themselves well no one is perfect we all make mistakes. No! A machinist seeks for perfection even though he may not ever achieve it. He does not say well this is just a small mistake I will get it forgiven by the engineer. No! any mistake is a mistake and not acceptable to a real machinist.

The same with any occupation. You practice what is required of you or you are not what you claim to be. Now apply that to those who are saved. We practice righteousness. The lost practice sin. It is not about a number or a length of time or type of sin.It is not a 60/40 thing or even a 90/10 thing. It is what our practice is.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (Practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not (practice) righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother

Remember not everyone who says they are saved are! And not everyone who thinks they are saved are! The practice of a true believer is to not sin and from time to time we might sin, but it is not our practice and if we do sin we take it to the Lord and then continue to seek not to sin. In other words a true believer does not take sin lightly.We do not practice sinning!

Very well put!

 

[convicted1]

I find the bible sufficient if we will just believe it. Discribe what you mean by sinless perfection.

Something that none of us can ever achieve. At the same time, we are not commanded to be like carps and be "bottom feeders" either.

God called us out of darkness into His marvellous Light. We are in the Light now, and we who are in the Light, do not stumble around, because we see that whenever we make a "boo boo", we go to the Father, tell Him that what we did was wrong, repent, and He will forgive us. But, we as christians, aren't stumbling all over the place, either.

 

[freeatlast]

Something that none of us can ever achieve. At the same time, we are not commanded to be like carps and be "bottom feeders" either.

God called us out of darkness into His marvellous Light. We are in the Light now, and we who are in the Light, do not stumble around, because we see that whenever we make a "boo boo", we go to the Father, tell Him that what we did was wrong, repent, and He will forgive us. But, we as christians, aren't stumbling all over the place, either.

Thank you for the response but that does not answer the question I asked JesusFan. I need to know what he means by the phrase "sinless perfection" to be able to answer him.

You can tell me what it means to you also if you would like a response to what you said, but just saying it is impossible wihtout me knowing what the term means to you is impossible to respond to.

 

[12strings]

Thank you for the response but that does not answer the question I asked JesusFan. I need to know what he means by the phrase "sinless perfection" to be able to answer him.

You can tell me what it means to you also if you would like a response to what you said, but just saying it is impossible wihtout me knowing what the term means to you is impossible to respond to.

Some define sinless perfection as reaching a point in our christian lives in which we no longer sin, either in word or deed. I think Fal gets accused of teaching this because he says that all of our sins are a choice that we can choose not to make, which is true. Romans 6 teaches that sin shall no longer have dominion, or mastery over us when we are in Christ.

I think wHere most on this board (Inlcuding me) disagree with FAL, is when it comes to the working out of this. I believe (correct me FAL If I am misrepresenting you) that FAL believes that it is theoretically and even practically possible to go some time without sinning, perhaps even a few days, if we devote our whole being to that aim. However, I still do not see exactly what he means by the "practice" of sin.

I think most of the rest of us would say that even though we now are free NOT to sin, which we were not before salvation...our old nature is still strong enough to taint everything we do. I can lead worship on Sunday morning thinking about how people view me. I can feed the poor with the motive of simply making myself feel helpful. I can still have a bad habit (is this a "practice") of responding in anger when attacked, rather than turning the other cheek, and praying for my enemies. I can still NOT love the lord my God with ALL MY HEART. I still do many things with no thought for the glory of God (and so Disobey 1 Cor. 10:31).

It seems that many, if not most of the great spiritual writers of history wrestled with their own sinfulness well after they were Christians.

But...Fal is not teaching sinless perfection, but rather a different, more optomistic view of sanctification than most of us are used to hearing.

 

[convicted1]

Thank you for the response but that does not answer the question I asked JesusFan. I need to know what he means by the phrase "sinless perfection" to be able to answer him.

You can tell me what it means to you also if you would like a response to what you said, but just saying it is impossible wihtout me knowing what the term means to you is impossible to respond to.

I see sinless perfection where I no longer sin, neither do I feel tempted by sin. I can not agree with that assessment. We, in our physical bodies, will be tempted by satan until we die. The serpent was cursed to eat the dust, and we are made from the dust(our physical body that is), and he will eat at it until we die. It is up to us whether we give in to that temptation. So yes, sin is a choice, and we don't have to do it.

 

[convicted1]

The biblical truth is that we are fully able to STILL commit the very same sins did before saved by god, its just that we can refuse to do them on a habitual basis as a consistant lifestyle, but still are able to "free will" greatly sin!

Well Brother, I say this quite a bit. If you don't see a change made in one's life after they have stated they are saved, then chances are(Johnny Mathis style) there hasn't been a change made. I am not saying they will be perfect, but if somone is committing the same things after being saved, then how's that a change? We hate the things we once loved, and love the things we once hated.

That is why John said in 1 John proscrption in that case is to confess/having biblical repentence, to get restored back to the Lord and move on!

I agree that whenever we choose to sin, that the rod of correction will God use. We are then to confess our sin to Him, and He will forgive. But for us to come at every "whipstitch", something's wrong. We will err from the "path", but we won't do this everytime we turn around. I guess I am betwixt your belief and Brother FAL's....being closer to his side of this debate.