Did the Apostle In 1 John mean A Christian cannot Sin any longer?

[freeatlast]

A dog is never born again.

The new birth is why we have two natures.

The new birth brings the spiritual nature.

The controversy is whether the old (the flesh) is eradicated.

If not why then are we instructed to walk in the Spirit to avoid the works of the flesh?

Galatians 5

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.​

The flesh remains and we are instructed to mortify the deeds of the old nature:​

Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:​

Seems we could all use a little more of this kind of scriptural advice seeing the awful and accusatory interchanges going on here at the BB lately.​

HankD​

If I understand you , you hold that the flesh is the second nature, Does that mean Jesus had a sin nature as He took on the flesh?

 

[Winman]

If I understand you , you hold that the flesh is the second nature, Does that mean Jesus had a sin nature as He took on the flesh?

I can't answer for Hank, but yes, Jesus came in the FLESH. This is what I have been saying for months, folks cannot seem to grasp this. Jesus was FLESH. He had the same natural lusts and desires that we are born with, yet he never obeyed them when they would cause him to disobey God.

We are not born sinners, we are born FLESH. Having these natural desires and lusts does not make us sinners, you have to actually transgress God's law to be a sinner.

Eve had the three lusts described in 1 John 2:16. The tree looked good for food, this is the lust of the flesh. The tree was pleasant to look upon, this is the lust of the eyes, the tree was "desired" to make one wise, this is the pride of life. Yet, God called both Adam and Eve VERY GOOD. God does not condemn us or judge us for being born with a FLESH nature, he condemns us when we obey these lusts in opposition to his commands. If Eve would have walked away from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, she would have committed no sin.

But Jesus had the same EXACT nature as us.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Jesus had the same NATURE as his brethren the seed of Abraham. He was was in ALL THINGS made like unto his brethren. He SUFFERED being tempted. He was tempted in ALL POINTS as we are, YET WITHOUT SIN. Jesus felt the pull of our natural FLESHLY desires, but he did not obey them when they would have caused him to sin.

When you start saying Jesus was different than us, this is gross error. The scriptures say those who deny Jesus came in the FLESH are the spirit of antichrist.

1 Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

This is why I do not like the term "sin nature". Jesus was born into the world with the same exact nature we are born with. If we are born with a "sin nature", then so was Jesus. I refuse to believe this, Jesus came in the FLESH.

The nature we are born with is not sinful, although it will pull us toward sin. But it is only when we actually sin we become sinners.

 

[drfuss]

I thought you might be interested in what the Pentecostal Holiness Church believes concerning Christians being able to live without sinning. Below is taken from their expanded statement of faith.

"It is not absolute perfection, not angelic perfection; not “sinless perfection,” if the term is used to imply the impossibility of a sanctified person’s falling into sin. We do not believe it is impossible for the sanctified to commit sin; but we do believe it is possible for a sanctified person not to commit sin (Luke 1:73-75; Titus 2:11, 12; 1 John 1:7; 2:1, 6; 3:5-10; 5:18). We are aware of John’s statement in 1 John 1:8, but these words apply to those who deny the need for cleansing, not to those who have experienced it and are living the sanctified life.'

Note that the Pentecostal Holiness Denomination (a relatively small denomination) is the only pentecostal denomination that believes it is possible for a santified person to not commit sin. Other pentecostal denominations believe the same about satification as most Baptists do. Of course the pentecostal cults (i.e. the Oneness Pentecostal Church, etc.) may believe it.

 

[freeatlast]

I thought you might be interested in what the Pentecostal Holiness Church believes concerning Christians being able to live without sinning. Below is taken from their expanded statement of faith.

"It is not absolute perfection, not angelic perfection; not “sinless perfection,” if the term is used to imply the impossibility of a sanctified person’s falling into sin. We do not believe it is impossible for the sanctified to commit sin; but we do believe it is possible for a sanctified person not to commit sin (Luke 1:73-75; Titus 2:11, 12; 1 John 1:7; 2:1, 6; 3:5-10; 5:18). We are aware of John’s statement in 1 John 1:8, but these words apply to those who deny the need for cleansing, not to those who have experienced it and are living the sanctified life.'

Note that the Pentecostal Holiness Denomination (a relatively small denomination) is the only pentecostal denomination that believes it is possible for a santified person to not commit sin. Other pentecostal denominations believe the same about satification as most Baptists do. Of course the pentecostal cults (i.e. the Oneness Pentecostal Church, etc.) may believe it.

So are you saying you have to sin?

 

[drfuss]

Quote:
Originally Posted by drfuss
I thought you might be interested in what the Pentecostal Holiness Church believes concerning Christians being able to live without sinning. Below is taken from their expanded statement of faith.

"It is not absolute perfection, not angelic perfection; not “sinless perfection,” if the term is used to imply the impossibility of a sanctified person’s falling into sin. We do not believe it is impossible for the sanctified to commit sin; but we do believe it is possible for a sanctified person not to commit sin (Luke 1:73-75; Titus 2:11, 12; 1 John 1:7; 2:1, 6; 3:5-10; 5:18). We are aware of John’s statement in 1 John 1:8, but these words apply to those who deny the need for cleansing, not to those who have experienced it and are living the sanctified life.'

Note that the Pentecostal Holiness Denomination (a relatively small denomination) is the only pentecostal denomination that believes it is possible for a santified person to not commit sin. Other pentecostal denominations believe the same about satification as most Baptists do. Of course the pentecostal cults (i.e. the Oneness Pentecostal Church, etc.) may believe it.

Freeatlast: So are you saying you have to sin?

drfuss: I am saying that we all sin whether it is by commision or omission.

I provided the above because it is related to the discussion; and it in the one denomination that I know of, that believes a santified Christian can live without sin.

 

[HankD]

Look I believe we are all saying the same thing.

FAL has identified the functional application of the present participle "to commit sin".

We as the children of God are still capable of sin but it is not our "natural inclination" after the new birth.

Winman has a point that babes in Christ are refered to as sarkikoi (fleshy) and need to be nurtured with the milk of the word.

If we try to feed meat to those who have no spiritual teeth they will choke.

Also a brother/sister can wander.

Rather than pointing the accusing finger at them as judge and jury why not be like the Good Physician and seek to gently heal them.

Suppose you had an ugly boil on your face.
You walk into the doctors office and he has this look of disgust on his face and verbally thrashes you for neglecting your health.

Rather, how about "let me help you and get some medicine for that".

How quickly it seems that the straying sheep are accused of being goats and get figuratively chucked into the lake of fire.

It is possible that if we neglect agape love we might find ourselves on the accusing side of the pointed finger.

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.​

Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

HankD​

 

[freeatlast]

Quote:
Originally Posted by drfuss
I thought you might be interested in what the Pentecostal Holiness Church believes concerning Christians being able to live without sinning. Below is taken from their expanded statement of faith.

"It is not absolute perfection, not angelic perfection; not “sinless perfection,” if the term is used to imply the impossibility of a sanctified person’s falling into sin. We do not believe it is impossible for the sanctified to commit sin; but we do believe it is possible for a sanctified person not to commit sin (Luke 1:73-75; Titus 2:11, 12; 1 John 1:7; 2:1, 6; 3:5-10; 5:18). We are aware of John’s statement in 1 John 1:8, but these words apply to those who deny the need for cleansing, not to those who have experienced it and are living the sanctified life.'

Note that the Pentecostal Holiness Denomination (a relatively small denomination) is the only pentecostal denomination that believes it is possible for a santified person to not commit sin. Other pentecostal denominations believe the same about satification as most Baptists do. Of course the pentecostal cults (i.e. the Oneness Pentecostal Church, etc.) may believe it.

Freeatlast: So are you saying you have to sin?

drfuss: I am saying that we all sin whether it is by commision or omission.

I provided the above because it is related to the discussion; and it in the one denomination that I know of, that believes a santified Christian can live without sin.

The fact that we sin does not mean we cannot live without sinning. This commission and omission stuff is a bunch of bunk. It is used to intimidate others to make them think they are sinning when they are not.

 

[12strings]

The fact that we sin does not mean we cannot live without sinning. This commission and omission stuff is a bunch of bunk. It is used to intimidate others to make them think they are sinning when they are not.

Are you saying that if the bible says to do something, and I omit it, it is not a sin?

 

[HankD]

Are you saying that if the bible says to do something, and I omit it, it is not a sin?

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.​

HankD​

 

[freeatlast]

Are you saying that if the bible says to do something, and I omit it, it is not a sin?

Absolutely not. I am saying that those who push that make things sin that are not and tell people they are committing sins of omission even when they had no knowledge of something or conviction.

 

[freeatlast]

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.​

HankD​

Exactly! :thumbsup:

 

[freeatlast]

There is absolutely no reason for any believer to be sinning every day! There are 365 days in a year, 8760 hours in a year, and most Christians run around claiming they cannot go even 16 hours without sinning. Now that is a fine testimony to the world. No wonder they mock the Christian faith.

It is time believers start acting like they are believers and put a stop to all this sin.
Jesus said;
If ye love me, keep my commandments

And if we are not keeping them;
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

[HankD]

1 Pet 1:14 describes the unsaved or natural man. They operate according to their natural desires and lusts. They are ignorant of the ways of God and operate according to their own thinking. For example, the natural man will hate someone who hates him, it is a natural reaction, where Jesus told us to love our enemies as God loved us even when we were in enmity to him.

When a person believes God's word, he will naturally be inclined toward it.

Yes but don't forget the Corinthian Christians and how skilfully Paul balanced rebuke with compassion to these babes in Christ who had yet matured.

HankD

 

[percho]

There is absolutely no reason for any believer to be sinning every day! There are 365 days in a year, 8760 hours in a year, and most Christians run around claiming they cannot go even 16 hours without sinning. Now that is a fine testimony to the world. No wonder they mock the Christian faith.

It is time believers start acting like they are believers and put a stop to all this sin.
Jesus said;
If ye love me, keep my commandments

And if we are not keeping them;
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Somebody has to do it.

Could you list, oh I don't, ten or twelve of these commandments for me? Wish I knew how to put a smiley face here.

 

[JesusFan]

There is absolutely no reason for any believer to be sinning every day! There are 365 days in a year, 8760 hours in a year, and most Christians run around claiming they cannot go even 16 hours without sinning. Now that is a fine testimony to the world. No wonder they mock the Christian faith.

It is time believers start acting like they are believers and put a stop to all this sin.
Jesus said;
If ye love me, keep my commandments

And if we are not keeping them;
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

isn't pride still considered a sin though?
And just HOW do we stop sinning altogether?
What method?

 

[freeatlast]

isn't pride still considered a sin though?
And just HOW do we stop sinning altogether?
What method?

Yes Pride is a sin, but not everything some people call pride is.Here is the NT def. of pride.
1) empty, braggart talk
2) an insolent and empty assurance, which trusts in its own power and resources and shamefully despises and violates divine laws and human rights
3) an impious and empty presumption which trusts in the stability of earthy things

As to what method; The same way you do not sin every chance you have. You Decide not to sin.
Gal 5:18
[This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Phl 4:8
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things.

 

[percho]

There is absolutely no reason for any believer to be sinning every day! There are 365 days in a year, 8760 hours in a year, and most Christians run around claiming they cannot go even 16 hours without sinning. Now that is a fine testimony to the world. No wonder they mock the Christian faith.

It is time believers start acting like they are believers and put a stop to all this sin.
Jesus said;
If ye love me, keep my commandments

And if we are not keeping them;
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Somebody has to do it.

sorry double post

 

[freeatlast]

Somebody has to do it.

sorry double post

I think you have hit on the motto of the average Christian.

 

[Amy.G]

My definition of sin is anything, whether in deed or thought that falls short of the glory of God. I take care of my mother who is in bad health, has a bad attitude and I don't really know if she is saved or not. My "opinion" is that she is not, but only God knows her heart so I cannot judge. But she is very difficult to get along with a lot of the time. Now while I do good things for her, I will admit that my thoughts are not always good. Sometimes I even resent her because I cannot have a life of my own. This is a daily struggle for me. I must constantly go to God to cleanse my thoughts and seek forgiveness because I know that Jesus would have none of the thoughts and irritation that I feel. I fall short of His glory. :tear:

 

[freeatlast]

My definition of sin is anything, whether in deed or thought that falls short of the glory of God. I take care of my mother who is in bad health, has a bad attitude and I don't really know if she is saved or not. My "opinion" is that she is not, but only God knows her heart so I cannot judge. But she is very difficult to get along with a lot of the time. Now while I do good things for her, I will admit that my thoughts are not always good. Sometimes I even resent her because I cannot have a life of my own. This is a daily struggle for me. I must constantly go to God to cleanse my thoughts and seek forgiveness because I know that Jesus would have none of the thoughts and irritation that I feel. I fall short of His glory. :tear:

Amy what going to say here is going to upset some. None the less I believe it to be correct. I hear people all the time explain why they sin. I once had a young man come to be at work and ask me what he could do about his sinful sexual thoughts. I told him the same I would tell anyone and it is what I seek to practice as well.
That is if you are having a problem with a certain temptation then get what ever it is out of your life that is causing it. In his case one of the things he had was a calendar of partially dresses women at his work station. I told him one thing was to go and throw it away. He just lowered his head and walked away and nerve removed the calendar. I assume he remained in defeat.
Several years ago I allowed my sister to move in with me. Some time before that she had been in a very serious auto accident, her own fault, and was crippled up very bad. She is on total disability and barley makes it by and sometimes did not and has been an addict most her life. The government now pays for her addiction.
I know in her case she is lost, but I opened my home to her. She is very controlling and likes to rule and sadly cannot be trusted, but I knew all this and was willing to try if she would just listen. I set down some rules which she agreed to and we went from there. After just about 2 months it was clear she was not going to do right and it was causing me some serious problems in the thought area like you mentioned and perhaps even worse then your thoughts.
I had tried to talk to her and explain to her, but she is the way she is and was not going to listen. So I finally told her she had to leave. I asked her where she would like me to book her flight to and told her she had until the weekend to be out and she was. She is back to her old stomping grounds and doing her thing just barley making it and at times not making it.
My point is sometimes we have to take hard steps so as not dishonor the Lord with our daily lives. You have to decide if you want to continued to have those thoughts if you cannot get over them or do what it takes to stop them.
There is no such thing as having to sin or the slightest excuse for it. God's grace was not intended so we can continue to sin even if we think we are doing good. We just have to choose if we are going to continue to allow those things in our lives that cause us to stumble.
1Cor 10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].
I pray you are able to do what honors the Lord what ever it may take.