How To Church Plant

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The Great Commission is a matter of being sent! God sends preachers does he not (Rom. 10:14-15)?

Concerning your illustration. You have a mixture of people from various denominations divided over everything imaginable. In regard to the gospel some by beleive justification inclusive of works and others without works. In regard to baptism, some may be immersed, others sprinked and still others poured. They could no more be scripturally constituted into a Church as could the membes of a Masonic Lodge. However, even Masonic Lodges will not recognize any other Masonic Lodge that self-organized itself.

These mixed up variety of divisive professing Christians have no more authority to self-constitute as they would to self-baptize or self ordain.

The Great Commission was given to the body of disciples that habitually assembled with Christ as their "head" authorized leader from the baptism of John to his ascension (Acts 1:21-22).

The Great Commission was given to those who already "have" been taught to observe all things Christ commanded sharing a COMMON GOSPEL and a COMMON BAPTISM with a COMMON FAITH AND PRACTICE. It was not given to those identified as "them" in Matthew 28:19-20 or to those identied as "all nations" in Matthew 28:19 but rather to those identified as "ye" formerly identifed as "disciples" as only disciples can disciple others.

You are not Christ's disciple if you embrace ANOTHER GOSPEL than Christ preached (Jn. 3:16).

You are not Christ's disciple of you submit to ANOTHER BAPTISM than Christ administered (Jn. 4:1-2; Luk 7:29-30).

You are not Christ's disciple if you teach and observe ANOTHER FAITH AND ORDER than Christ commanded (1 Tim. 4:1).

A "disciple" is one who observes and believes what the Master teaches it is not one who is INVATIVE and goes making disciples by ANOTHER gospel, ANOTHER baptism and ANOTHER faith and order. Such an invoter is called a heretic not a disciple.

Good Biblicist....then you send some of the Apostles to NW New Jersey & plant the damn church.....Otherwise, I will!

 

[The Biblicist]

Good Biblicist....then you send some of the Apostles to NW New Jersey & plant the damn church.....Otherwise, I will!

Well, I beleive I said it is God that sends did I not? So you or I will not do. God sends missionaries through his churches (Acts 13:1-4).

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well, I beleive I said it is God that sends did I not? So you or I will not do. God sends missionaries through his churches (Acts 13:1-4).

Good, well I have a brother who is a Baptist trained Pastor who just moved back home & is now working a secular job. Perhaps God sent him!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

EW&F: Good Biblicist....then you send some of the Apostles to NW New Jersey & plant the damn church.....Otherwise, I will!

HP: That reminds me of a comment I heard once by a Pentecostal man if I remember rightly. He said, " If the Spirit doesn't move, I move the Spirit. "

 

[The Biblicist]

Good, well I have a brother who is a Baptist trained Pastor who just moved back home & is now working a secular job. Perhaps God sent him!

God sends his preaches through his churches (Acts 13:1-3). There is an instrumental plural "ye" that stands between "them" and Christ in the Great Commission and that is the church with its ordained leadership (Acts 1:21-22; 2:41-42).

 

[Salty]

Biblicist

Opps, forgot to mention - the boat cruise was chartered for a group of independent Baptist seniors! Of which two were retired pastors

Oh, come on - you never answered the question. Get real.

 

[padredurand]

Opps, forgot to mention - the boat cruise was chartered for a group of independent Baptist seniors! Of which two were retired pastors.

20 Baptists and two preachers? I see two church starts and a third church down the road after there is fallout for Brother Clapsalot using coconuts as an instrument during the singing.

 

[The Biblicist]

Biblicist

Oh, come on - you never answered the question. Get real.

I answered the question but you simply reject the answer. However, I will spell it out for you because your such a likable chap!

Authority to constitute churches is the essence of the Great Commission. What begins with the gospel ends with assembling of those sharing the same gospel and same baptism in order to observe "all things whatsoever I have commanded" - same faith and practice as one assemblying body.

Note also, that the same "ye" whom Christ authorized has already been through this same process ("have commanded you") of disciple making and are already His disciples (v. 16). Hence, the same kind of "ye" He authorizes to take the gospel is the same kind of "ye" that is authorized to administer baptism. Likewise, the same kind of "ye" that is authorized to administer baptism is to teach them how to observe all things whatsoever commanded by Christ. This is a commission to reproduce after its own kind until the end of the world.

There is no authority for those identified as "them" in this Commission to administer baptism or to assemble baptized beleivers and teach them.

Who are the "them"? They are those who received the gospel but are yet unbaptized and untaught.

THIS MEANS THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS DIRECT AUTHORITY FROM CHRIST TO ANY BELEIVER READING THIS SCRIPTURE TO ADMINISTER BAPTISM OR CONSTITUTE CHURCHES. There is an horizontal or instrumental authority established and it is "ye" and not "them." The "ye" is by contextual definition and demand LIKE FAITH AND ORDER with Christ in the gospel, baptism and faith and practice. This is a commission to reproduce like faith and order - period. Anything different is called heresy and heretics.

Opps, forgot to mention - the boat cruise was chartered for a group of independent Baptist seniors! Of which two were retired pastors

Even if they are "Baptists" with a couple of "retired" ministers they have no authority to constitute themselves a church of Christ. The only exception would be if the churches which ordained them still recognize their ordination as valid for doing mission work as their authorized representatives AND if they were of like faith and order with Christ's gospel, baptism and faith and practice.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: THIS MEANS THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS DIRECT AUTHORITY FROM CHRIST TO ANY BELEIVER READING THIS SCRIPTURE TO ADMINISTER BAPTISM OR CONSTITUTE CHURCHES. There is an horizontal or instrumental authority established and it is "ye" and not "them." The "ye" is by contextual definition and demand LIKE FAITH AND ORDER with Christ in the gospel, baptism and faith and practice. This is a commission to reproduce like faith and order - period. Anything different is called heresy and heretics.

HP: Th 2:4 But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.

In light of Biblicist's remark above, can we rightfully conclude that every denomination has the right to call ever other denomination 'heretics' by the nature of their own calling and order? Hmmmmm.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

20 Baptists and two preachers? I see two church starts and a third church down the road after there is fallout for Brother Clapsalot using coconuts as an instrument during the singing.

....and still another cause they didnt like the color of the sand on the east side of the island.:thumbs:

 

[padredurand]

I answered the question but you simply reject the answer. However, I will spell it out for you because your such a likable chap!

Authority to constitute churches is the essence of the Great Commission. What begins with the gospel ends with assembling of those sharing the same gospel and same baptism in order to observe "all things whatsoever I have commanded" - same faith and practice as one assemblying body.

Note also, that the same "ye" whom Christ authorized has already been through this same process ("have commanded you") of disciple making and are already His disciples (v. 16). Hence, the same kind of "ye" He authorizes to take the gospel is the same kind of "ye" that is authorized to administer baptism. Likewise, the same kind of "ye" that is authorized to administer baptism is to teach them how to observe all things whatsoever commanded by Christ. This is a commission to reproduce after its own kind until the end of the world.

There is no authority for those identified as "them" in this Commission to administer baptism or to assemble baptized beleivers and teach them.

Who are the "them"? They are those who received the gospel but are yet unbaptized and untaught.

THIS MEANS THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS DIRECT AUTHORITY FROM CHRIST TO ANY BELEIVER READING THIS SCRIPTURE TO ADMINISTER BAPTISM OR CONSTITUTE CHURCHES. There is an horizontal or instrumental authority established and it is "ye" and not "them." The "ye" is by contextual definition and demand LIKE FAITH AND ORDER with Christ in the gospel, baptism and faith and practice. This is a commission to reproduce like faith and order - period. Anything different is called heresy and heretics.

Even if they are "Baptists" with a couple of "retired" ministers they have no authority to constitute themselves a church of Christ. The only exception would be if the churches which ordained them still recognize their ordination as valid for doing mission work as their authorized representatives AND if they were of like faith and order with Christ's gospel, baptism and faith and practice.

In other words Apostolic Succession. Any church that exists outside a direct and unbroken line from the Eleven (Matt 28:16) is heretical. Things that make you go Hmmmmm.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

God sends his preaches through his churches (Acts 13:1-3). There is an instrumental plural "ye" that stands between "them" and Christ in the Great Commission and that is the church with its ordained leadership (Acts 1:21-22; 2:41-42).

So your saying it isnt an independent church but a mere satellite of the momma church? Then where does the liberty of being an independent ever come into the equation because your implying that it cant ever happen. Guess Roger Williams was a heretic then.

 

[Salty]

Even if they are "Baptists" with a couple of "retired" ministers they have no authority to constitute themselves a church of Christ. The only exception would be if the churches which ordained them still recognize their ordination as valid for doing mission work as their authorized representatives AND if they were of like faith and order with Christ's gospel, baptism and faith and practice.

So, how does this group of 20 (born agian, scripitually bapitzed) Baptists recive authority if they have no contact with the outside world?

 

[The Biblicist]

In other words Apostolic Succession. Any church that exists outside a direct and unbroken line from the Eleven (Matt 28:16) is heretical. Things that make you go Hmmmmm.

Don't believe in "apostolic" succession. But I do believe in "church" succession in the sense that all who are authorized church planters are sent out by a church of like faith and order.

Can you find anyone in the New Testament that planted a church which was not a member of a previousl church of like faith and order?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Salty, :wavey::wavey: (That signifies me in the back of the classroom with my hands up)

 

[The Biblicist]

So your saying it isnt an independent church but a mere satellite of the momma church? Then where does the liberty of being an independent ever come into the equation because your implying that it cant ever happen. Guess Roger Williams was a heretic then.

A group of people are not a church until they are organized into one. They are organized by one or more ordained representatives of one or more previous existing churches of like faith and order. Yes, Roger Williams was a heretic. He disbanded his church and became a seeker. John Clarke pastored the oldest Baptist Church in America.

 

[The Biblicist]

So, how does this group of 20 (born agian, scripitually bapitzed) Baptists recive authority if they have no contact with the outside world?

Don't need to be a church to go to heaven. The "seniors" have no way to do carry out the commission if they were a church. Just meet together and serve God the best they can in the situation they are in.

Someone can always imagine a "If" scenario but does it reflect any real life scenario?

If they were all saved but unbaptized without any church authorized admiinistrator they would not need baptism to go to heaven. They have no authority to administer "self" baptism or "self" ordination.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: If they were all saved but unbaptized without any church authorized admiinistrator they would not need baptism to go to heaven. They have no authority to administer "self" baptism or "self" ordination.

HP: So, what is all the fuss about baptism if it is not needed to go to heaven? What real purpose does it have? Furthermore, how can one be absolutely certain the one doing the baptism is a properly 'authorized administrator?'

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

A group of people are not a church until they are organized into one. They are organized by one or more ordained representatives of one or more previous existing churches of like faith and order. Yes, Roger Williams was a heretic. He disbanded his church and became a seeker. John Clarke pastored the oldest Baptist Church in America.

Now your just trying to tarnish the guys rep.....historians site that he was not a seeker, that that bit of mis information was used to dishonor & discredit the man. You use the same tactics. I'm done with this conversation.

Good evening

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I will never forget two preachers on my couch that wanted to re-baptize me, telling me that a baptism by one of them was the only way to be part of their assembly. I asked them if they knew for certain who baptized the other, and they got this real strange look on their face. When they said no, but they were certain it was by someone in their group, I told them then they in reality had to accept each others baptism by faith. I said I wanted them to accept my word on being baptized by faith, just like they accepted each others baptism by faith. They left a few moments later, never to be heard of again.