The Often Heard Modern Gospel

[Jerry Shugart]

Your interpretation is irrational. You are actually demanding that progressive action cannot precede the present moment if progressive action occurs after the present moment and vice versa. However something in progress denies either a starting point prior to the present moment as much as after the present moment. Hence on both sides of the present moment it is in progress because the present tense denies a beginning or ending point. You are simply wrong!

First of all, you are putting words in my mouth which I never said.

Secondly, I quoted Greek experts so if you have a disagreement with what they said then tell me what your credentials are in regard to the Greek language and then perhaps I will condsider what you say about the Greek language.

In the mean time I have already given another verse which includes both a verb in the "present" tense as well as one in the "perfect" tense. But you REFUSE to discuss it because you know that it proves that you are wrong. Here is the verse:

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes (present tense) him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over (perfect tense) from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

The present tense does not tell us when the act of believing began but we can know that it started at the same time when the believer is passed from death unto life. And that is because no one is passed from death unto life until they believe:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

The only thing which you want to talk about is the Greek construction of only one verse and again, what are your credentials in the Greek language?

 

[The Biblicist]

First of all, you are putting words in my mouth which I never said.

No I am not! You are demanding that the Greek scholar you are quoting is using "or" to select one side or the other but not both! That interpretation is plainly irrational!

Secondly, I quoted Greek experts so if you have a disagreement with what they said then tell me what your credentials are in regard to the Greek language and then perhaps I will condsider what you say about the Greek language.

You quote him and then MISINTERPRET what he says! He is not saying that "in progress" or "duration" of present tense can only occur only on one side of the present moment but not the other side of the present moment! That is aburd!

The present tense never indicates a beginning or ending point and that is exactly what he is saying. Because the present tense does not indicate a beginning point it is necessarily in progress before the present moment or otherwise it would indidate a beginning point before the present moment. Because the present tense does not indicate an ending point it is in progress after the present moment or otherwise it would indicate an ending point after the present moment.

In the mean time I have already given another verse which includes both a verb in the "present" tense as well as one in the "perfect" tense. But you REFUSE to discuss it because you know that it proves that you are wrong. Here is the verse:

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes (present tense) him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over (perfect tense) from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

I answered this verse in minute detail. You simply do not understand the present tense or the grammatical structure of this verse and no amount of explaining it to you will help because you have made up your mind based upon ignorance of grammar and in spite of the facts.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I answered this verse in minute detail

You did NOT answer what I said about the verse:

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes (present tense) him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over (perfect tense) from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

The present tense does not tell us when the act of believing began but we can know that it started at the same time when the believer is passed from death unto life. And that is because no one is passed from death unto life until they believe:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

You continue to avoid John 20:31 like the plague because it completely destroys your argument in regard to 1 John 1:1. And instead of acting in a mature matter all you will discuss is the Greek construction in that verse. By the way, what are your credentials in the Greek language?

He is not saying that "in progress" or "duration" of present tense can only occur only on one side of the present moment but not the other side of the present moment! That is aburd!

I never said that the duration can occur ONLY on one side of the present moment but not the other side of the present moment!

I challenge you to quote me saying that.

 

[The Biblicist]

You did NOT answer what I said about the verse:

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes (present tense) him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over (perfect tense) from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

The present tense does not tell us when the act of believing began but we can know that it started at the same time when the believer is passed from death unto life.

You simply do not understand the difference between spiritual life due to quickening and judicial life due to faith. John 3:26 defines quickening as the logical beginning point for faith and thus the logical cause for faith beginning not vice versa.

John 20:30-31 defines faith as the cause for "eternal life" or justification by faith which has to do with the change of sentence by divine law in regard to the elect. Prior to justification the sentence was condemnation unto "eternal death." However, at faith the legal condemnation is changed from "eternal death" to "eternal life."

Hence SPIRITUAL eternal life IN THE PERSON of the elect precedes faith while LEGAL eternal life is the LEGAL POSITION of elect in heaven "in Christ."

Of course you will reject this. So we are at an impasse and so there is no need to further discuss it. I will just let you rant and rant and rant.

I never said that the duration can occur ONLY on one side of the present moment but not the other side of the present moment!

I challenge you to quote me saying that.

My oh my! If not, then why are you even arguing that I am wrong in my understanding of your Greek scholars use of "or"???????????????

If you agree that he is INCLUDING BOTH as EQUALLY "in progress" before and after "the present moment" because necessarily the present tense does not have a beginning or ending point then what is the argument all about???