Would Calvin use an Evangicube? Debate: Mark Dever and Barry Creamer

[humblethinker]

Earlier this November at the Southern Baptists of Texas Convention in Irving, Texas, I attended a "Dinner and Discussion" with Dr. Mark Dever, Pastor of Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington DC (and Nine Marks Ministries), and Dr. Barry Creamer, Professor of Humanities at Criswell College in Dallas, Texas.

The topic "Would Calvin use an Evangicube?" may seem trite but is appropriate. I thought the discussion was an excellent showcasing of the mainstream ideas of reformed and non-reformed thinking and should be a model we should follow on this forum regarding the spirit with which we attempt to inform and persuade one another.

The direct link to the audio of the discussion can be found here.

Criswell College's "For Chriist and Culture" site with all their recordings, including this one, can be found here.

 

[humblethinker]

One thing, of many, I found interesting was was that compatiblism is basically a determinist's way to justify the use of 'free will' language. That compatiblism ultimately determinism.

 

[Ruiz]

This is a good discussion. The deterministic question I wish Dever would have pushed determinism a bit more. I know Creamer differentiated between material determinism and theological, but I don't know of any who would embrace the determinism language. Determinism is vacant of a theos, from all I have studied. Thus, I would embrace election and predestination, but could not embrace determinism.

I was impressed with the level of dialog, better than most I have seen on this issue. Yet, there still seems to be some misunderstanding of our beliefs. However, it is much better than in yeas past.

 

[quantumfaith]

Interesting discussion Humblethinker, thanks for sharing. However, I still do not know what an "evangicube" is.

 

[psalms109:31]

Interesting discussion Humblethinker, thanks for sharing. However, I still do not know what an "evangicube" is.

http://www.simplysharejesus.com/

Here is a good video, don't know about the site it came from.

 

[Iconoclast]

http://www.simplysharejesus.com/

Here is a good video, don't know about the site it came from.

That evangicube is a violation of the second commandment.....the message is also defective and man centered.

 

[psalms109:31]

That evangicube is a violation of the second commandment.....the message is also defective and man centered.

I am commanded to love God and love others as myself that I fall short of so much that I need Christ to help me every second. I tell the world the hope they have in Jesus Christ, to not to trust in Jesus Christ and His word is man centered.

Psalm 73:28
But it is good for me to draw near to God; I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, That I may declare all Your works.

Romans 4:
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

 

[psalms109:31]

I have used the evangicube in a apartment minister. The kids wanted to know what sin is and what sin they committed against God. They didn't know they were sinners and telling them every time they lied, disobey their parents. They wanted to know more about Jesus. They didn't come to worship the cube, but wanted to know more about Jesus. God has given us so many tools to use that Jesus will bring them to Himself.

Matthew 12:
Jesus and Beelzebul
22 Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. 23 All the people were astonished and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”

24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”

25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

29 “Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.

30 “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. 31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

33 “Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. 35 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[StefanM]

One thing, of many, I found interesting was was that compatiblism is basically a determinist's way to justify the use of 'free will' language. That compatiblism ultimately determinism.

That's why I find the "hard determinism" and "soft determinism" descriptions more helpful, even though I don't see much of a difference between those.

Compatibilism is determinism, period.

If something inexorably caused a particular mental state, then one cannot appeal to the mental state as the basis for free will in any true sense.