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Only begotten
- Thread starter agedman
- Start date
Not to put too fine a point on it Agedman, but the question has been asked and answered. Monogenes means one kind and is always used to refer to a one of a kind person. The one of a kind son or daughter, or Son, Christ Jesus. Only is not what the word means, begotten is a well recognized mistranslation, natural born simply reworks the mistranslation and perpetuates it.
I disagree. I think 'only-begotten' is much the best translation for reasons that I have given. Again, just because Don Carson says a thing, it doesn't mean it's so.
Steve
My point is I do not care if they change the root word for begotten from something they thought before. The word they have now decided on for the root word when applied relative to Son or the Father or coming in the flesh ie as a man that word is tied in some way to, "to be."
Even it it is to be different than, as was.
Even it it is to be different than, as was.
Martin, we do disgree. Monogenes means one kind, not only begotten. This assertion is not based on one or two scholars but represents the vast majority of modern scholars.
Jesusfan, not to put too fine a point on it, as a born again person, born of the Father, that makes us children of God, not by adoption but by spiritual rebirth.
And to repeat, no verse says we are sons of God by adoption. Just read the thread.
Jesusfan, not to put too fine a point on it, as a born again person, born of the Father, that makes us children of God, not by adoption but by spiritual rebirth.
And to repeat, no verse says we are sons of God by adoption. Just read the thread.
Martin, we do disgree. Monogenes means one kind, not only begotten. This assertion is not based on one or two scholars but represents the vast majority of modern scholars.
Jesusfan, not to put too fine a point on it, as a born again person, born of the Father, that makes us children of God, not by adoption but by spiritual rebirth.
And to repeat, no verse says we are sons of God by adoption. Just read the thread.
Romans 8:15
For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “ Abba! Father!”
Romans 8:23
And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
Romans 9:4
who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
Galatians 4:5
so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
Ephesians 1:5
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
You are right, Apostle paul never mentions it!
Martin, we do disgree. Monogenes means one kind, not only begotten. This assertion is not based on one or two scholars but represents the vast majority of modern scholars.
Jesusfan, not to put too fine a point on it, as a born again person, born of the Father, that makes us children of God, not by adoption but by spiritual rebirth.
And to repeat, no verse says we are sons of God by adoption. Just read the thread.
From your post 45
But the reason for my post is to question the assumption that we become heirs by adoption. We become heirs when we are born again and this does not equate with adoption. Adoption refers to our bodily resurrection and is part of our "inheritance" as a born again believer.
In Romans 8:15 we have received the "Spirit of Adoption" which refers to our indwelt Spirit given as a pledge to our inheritance.
This is also for JesusFan
I have often wondered why we are said to be sons of God as in being born of God and then also adoption.
Romans 8:16,17 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;
From 15-17 it is no doubt that it is Holy Spirit of adoption that allows us to be the children of God and as children with the Spirit of adoption heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. Currently we are heirs, not inheritors. Yes or No?
Jesus, the only begotten of God the Father born of woman, upon resurrection from the dead received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:32,33 Jesus is the firstborn from the dead. Col 1:18
We begotten of our earthly fathers born of woman receive the Spirit through Christ. for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you;
We are begotten of God through Jesus by the Spirit of adoption putting us into his church, Jerusalem above the mother of us all and will become inheritors when born again from the church into the kingdom of God at his coming.
(Jesus) Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? (The Church at His coming) Shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
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Receiving the Spirit of Adoption does not equate with adoption. After we are spiritually placed in Christ and arise in Christ a new creation, born again from above, we are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit as a pledge for our future adoption, our bodily resurrection.
Why you may wonder do the Calvinists reject the obvious? Because according to their view of scripture being predestined to adoption refers to being predestined to salvation. But rather than a frank discussion, we get the usual shuck and jive.
Why you may wonder do the Calvinists reject the obvious? Because according to their view of scripture being predestined to adoption refers to being predestined to salvation. But rather than a frank discussion, we get the usual shuck and jive.
From[Romans8] 15-17 it is no doubt that it is Holy Spirit of adoption that allows us to be the children of God and as children with the Spirit of adoption heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. Currently we are heirs, not inheritors. Yes or No?
No! The Spirit of Adoption is the pledge we will be adopted, referring to our bodily resurrection. The Spirit does not allow us to be children of God, it is evidence that we are born anew, spiritual children of God. If you are indwelt, you have been born again, if you do not have the Spirit, you have not been born again. Now before there is an uproar, yes the Spirit does allow, cause, facilitate our growth from a "babe in Christ" to a mature Christian.
No! The Spirit of Adoption is the pledge we will be adopted, referring to our bodily resurrection. The Spirit does not allow us to be children of God, it is evidence that we are born anew, spiritual children of God. If you are indwelt, you have been born again, if you do not have the Spirit, you have not been born again. Now before there is an uproar, yes the Spirit does allow, cause, facilitate our growth from a "babe in Christ" to a mature Christian.
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From[Romans8] 15-17 it is no doubt that it is Holy Spirit of adoption that allows us to be the children of God and as children with the Spirit of adoption heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. Currently we are heirs, not inheritors. Yes or No?
No! The Spirit of Adoption is the pledge we will be adopted, referring to our bodily resurrection. The Spirit does not allow us to be children of God, it is evidence that we are born anew, spiritual children of God. If you are indwelt, you have been born again, if you do not have the Spirit, you have not been born again. Now before there is an uproar, yes the Spirit does allow, cause, facilitate our growth from a "babe in Christ" to a mature Christian.
Did you read my thread "Birth?" on page 2? My last post in thread I asked two posters Arron & MB this question: How about begotten by HS into?
Arron did not respond MB did in the affirmative but did not say into what.
Are we not begotten by God the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ, the church. Is that not where we mature from being babes in Christ? Is the church called in Gal. 4:26 Jerusalem above, the mother of us all? Is the
church in Hebrews 12:22,23 called the heavenly Jerusalem, city of the living God, Mt. Zion (Sion)?
Will we be born from the church, Zion into the kingdom of God, the manifestation of the sons of God?
Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Isa. 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? [or] shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
From[Romans8] 15-17 it is no doubt that it is Holy Spirit of adoption that allows us to be the children of God and as children with the Spirit of adoption heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. Currently we are heirs, not inheritors. Yes or No?
No! The Spirit of Adoption is the pledge we will be adopted, referring to our bodily resurrection. The Spirit does not allow us to be children of God, it is evidence that we are born anew, spiritual children of God. If you are indwelt, you have been born again, if you do not have the Spirit, you have not been born again. Now before there is an uproar, yes the Spirit does allow, cause, facilitate our growth from a "babe in Christ" to a mature Christian.
the HS is our down deposit, pledge towards God fully recovering His "investment" in us by the physical resurrection from the dead!
We are saved right now, adopted already, just at the resurrection will grant us the "fulness" of our adoption status in Christ!
Receiving the Spirit of Adoption does not equate with adoption. After we are spiritually placed in Christ and arise in Christ a new creation, born again from above, we are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit as a pledge for our future adoption, our bodily resurrection.
Why you may wonder do the Calvinists reject the obvious? Because according to their view of scripture being predestined to adoption refers to being predestined to salvation. But rather than a frank discussion, we get the usual shuck and jive.
Our adoption refers to our bodily resurrection not our salvation. So it equates with "ultimate glorification" at the Lord's second coming.
NopeDid you read my thread "Birth?" on page 2?
What verse says we were begotten by the HS into the Church? Scripture actually says God puts us into the Body of Christ by having the Holy Spirit baptize us into ChristMy last post in thread I asked two posters Arron & MB this question: How about begotten by HS into?
Arron did not respond MB did in the affirmative but did not say into what.
When you use the word "begotten" what Greek word are you referring to? The one that means one of a kind as in John 3:16, or the one that means caused to be born, "gennao" as in Acts 13:33?
Our adoption refers to our bodily resurrection not our salvation. So it equates with "ultimate glorification" at the Lord's second coming.
Then shall we wait until we are glorified to think that God is our Father?
Romans 8:15
King James Version (KJV)
15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
What verse says we were begotten by the HS into the Church?
Scripture actually says God puts us into the Body of Christ by having the Holy Spirit baptize us into Christ
Is this to be distinguished? That The Holy Spirit is not God?
I would like to see your reference verse for the latter statement.
And I would be curious to know how you view this:
Matthew 3:11
King James Version (KJV)
11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
God bless.
Hi Darrell C, let me try to answer your questions:
1, Shall we wait until we are glorified to think of God as our Father? Nope, every born anew believer has God as their Father. To repeat, become a child of God when we are born anew, not when we are adopted, which occurs later, at the Second Coming of Christ.
2, The Spirit of Adoption provides evidence of being born anew, thus having the Spirit of Adoption (a) provides evidence that we have been in the past born anew and (b) provides God's pledge of our future resurrection, hence Spirit of Adoption.
3, Is being begotten to be distinquished from being baptized into Christ? Yes. (a) being born again is transformational, we arise in Christ as new creation, born anew from above, but (b) being baptized into Christ is locational, we were in Adam, separated from God but God Himself, in the person of the Holy Spirit puts us in Christ and together with Christ we are made alive. Thus outside of Christ we are spiritually dead, and once placed in Christ we are made spiritually alive, born anew if you will.
4, What verse says God puts us into the body of Christ by baptizing us into Christ? 1 Cor. 12:13, Galatians 3:27. Please note these refer to our spiritual baptism, not our water baptism. 1 Corinthians 1:30 says God puts us in Christ.
1, Shall we wait until we are glorified to think of God as our Father? Nope, every born anew believer has God as their Father. To repeat, become a child of God when we are born anew, not when we are adopted, which occurs later, at the Second Coming of Christ.
2, The Spirit of Adoption provides evidence of being born anew, thus having the Spirit of Adoption (a) provides evidence that we have been in the past born anew and (b) provides God's pledge of our future resurrection, hence Spirit of Adoption.
3, Is being begotten to be distinquished from being baptized into Christ? Yes. (a) being born again is transformational, we arise in Christ as new creation, born anew from above, but (b) being baptized into Christ is locational, we were in Adam, separated from God but God Himself, in the person of the Holy Spirit puts us in Christ and together with Christ we are made alive. Thus outside of Christ we are spiritually dead, and once placed in Christ we are made spiritually alive, born anew if you will.
4, What verse says God puts us into the body of Christ by baptizing us into Christ? 1 Cor. 12:13, Galatians 3:27. Please note these refer to our spiritual baptism, not our water baptism. 1 Corinthians 1:30 says God puts us in Christ.
Nope
What verse says we were begotten by the HS into the Church? Scripture actually says God puts us into the Body of Christ by having the Holy Spirit baptize us into Christ
When you use the word "begotten" what Greek word are you referring to? The one that means one of a kind as in John 3:16, or the one that means caused to be born, "gennao" as in Acts 13:33?
Actually begotten of God as in John 3:7 by the HS baptizing us into the body of Christ, the church.
That should make it more clear yet has the same meaning.
Are we not begotten of God as in John 3:7 by the Holy Spirit baptizing us into the body of Christ, the church? Is that not where we mature being babes in Christ, in the church? Is the church called in Gal. 4:26 Jerusalem above, the mother of us all? Is the church in Hebrews 12:22,23 called the heavenly Jerusalem, city of the living God, Mt. Zion (Sion)?
Will we be born from the church, Zion into the kingdom of God, the manifestation of the sons of God?
Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Isa. 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? [or] shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
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Actually John 3:7 says nothing of what you claimed. "Do not be amazed that I said to you, "You must be born anew.""
1. We will not be born from the church, for we have been born anew spiritually already. We do grow in maturity as we follow the leading of the Holy Spirit after we have been born anew as babes in Christ.
2. The Jerusalem above is our mother, Galatians 4:26, but the Jerusalem above is allegorical being populated with children of the promise, corresponding to children of the free woman and not the bondwomen.
3. No, the church is not called the heavenly Jerusalem, rather the church of the first-born, which corresponds to the church of Jesus Christ. We are "enrolled in heaven" because our names are written in the Lamb's book of life when God spiritually puts us in Christ, being baptized into the body of Christ, the general assembly.
1. We will not be born from the church, for we have been born anew spiritually already. We do grow in maturity as we follow the leading of the Holy Spirit after we have been born anew as babes in Christ.
2. The Jerusalem above is our mother, Galatians 4:26, but the Jerusalem above is allegorical being populated with children of the promise, corresponding to children of the free woman and not the bondwomen.
3. No, the church is not called the heavenly Jerusalem, rather the church of the first-born, which corresponds to the church of Jesus Christ. We are "enrolled in heaven" because our names are written in the Lamb's book of life when God spiritually puts us in Christ, being baptized into the body of Christ, the general assembly.
Hi Darrell C, let me try to answer your questions:
1, Shall we wait until we are glorified to think of God as our Father? Nope, every born anew believer has God as their Father. To repeat, become a child of God when we are born anew, not when we are adopted, which occurs later, at the Second Coming of Christ.
Okay, I see, you are looking at "adoption" as it is used to speak of glorification.
I can agree with that, though we see that Israel is said to have been "adopted" as well:
Romans 9:4
King James Version (KJV)
4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
This may be a worthy topic of discussion.
2, The Spirit of Adoption provides evidence of being born anew, thus having the Spirit of Adoption (a) provides evidence that we have been in the past born anew and (b) provides God's pledge of our future resurrection, hence Spirit of Adoption.
I would agree with that.
3, Is being begotten to be distinquished from being baptized into Christ? Yes. (a) being born again is transformational, we arise in Christ as new creation, born anew from above, but (b) being baptized into Christ is locational, we were in Adam, separated from God but God Himself, in the person of the Holy Spirit puts us in Christ and together with Christ we are made alive. Thus outside of Christ we are spiritually dead, and once placed in Christ we are made spiritually alive, born anew if you will.
I can also agree with this, though how we go from our status as the sons, or children of God to dsicussing glorification...well, I am not sure...lol.
If adoption is looked at rigidly as glorification, the redemption of our bodies, I can understand that and agree.
I just sought to clarify that it was not being said that salvation does not take place...after this.
4, What verse says God puts us into the body of Christ by baptizing us into Christ? 1 Cor. 12:13, Galatians 3:27. Please note these refer to our spiritual baptism, not our water baptism. 1 Corinthians 1:30 says God puts us in Christ.
And that is also something I sought clarification on, as it seemed almost that God could be distinguished from God. I view the ministry of God toward man to have distinct differences, such as the Son and the Spirit doing work that is distinguished clearly in John, but look at Christ's role and the Spirit of God to be working together toward the same goal.
Menaing, I do not view Christ, the Son of God, to be separated from the Spirit as He seeks to convict.
Thanks for the response,
God bless.
PS-I will have to look at the verses offered later, Van, I am short on time this morning.
Hi Darrell C, I too agree with your comments. Thanks for an actual discussion based on what the Bible says!
I agree that Romans 9:4 is worthy of discussion. But to stick with this topic, lets narrow in on "adoption as sons." Paul, I think, is listing some of the actions, bestowals of Divine favor, upon his kinsmen according to the flesh, i.e. in accordance with His promise to Abraham. In other scripture, Paul explains this is not actually a "blood line" promise but more of a "belief line promise" within the chosen people, but also includes a few from outside, i.e Ruth and Rahab.
1. The Greek word translated "adoption" or "adoption as sons" is huiothesia and literally means to "make son" or make sons in some sense. Where many disagree with me is that they include being made a son by being born again, thus adoption refers to salvation. Everyone agrees that being born again makes us sons of God but where folks part company with me is that I do not think "huiothesia" is used to refer to that way of being made sons or children of God.
2. In Deut. 7:6 we learn that the Israelities were "chosen" to be God's people. (See also Deut. 14:1) Thus, an all inclusive meaning of huiothesia would be "made sons, in some sense, by choice."
Since this idea of being made sons refers to freeing existent physical people in a physical sense, i.e out of the bondage of Pharaoh, we can add made sons in some physical sense, by choice. And that is my view of the actual intended meaning of huiothesia as used by Paul. Hence, in the NT sense, we are born anew by God's choice and therefore made sons in a spiritual sense, but we will be, at the Lord's second coming, made sons in a physical sense when we are resurrected in glorified bodies.
I agree that Romans 9:4 is worthy of discussion. But to stick with this topic, lets narrow in on "adoption as sons." Paul, I think, is listing some of the actions, bestowals of Divine favor, upon his kinsmen according to the flesh, i.e. in accordance with His promise to Abraham. In other scripture, Paul explains this is not actually a "blood line" promise but more of a "belief line promise" within the chosen people, but also includes a few from outside, i.e Ruth and Rahab.
1. The Greek word translated "adoption" or "adoption as sons" is huiothesia and literally means to "make son" or make sons in some sense. Where many disagree with me is that they include being made a son by being born again, thus adoption refers to salvation. Everyone agrees that being born again makes us sons of God but where folks part company with me is that I do not think "huiothesia" is used to refer to that way of being made sons or children of God.
2. In Deut. 7:6 we learn that the Israelities were "chosen" to be God's people. (See also Deut. 14:1) Thus, an all inclusive meaning of huiothesia would be "made sons, in some sense, by choice."
Since this idea of being made sons refers to freeing existent physical people in a physical sense, i.e out of the bondage of Pharaoh, we can add made sons in some physical sense, by choice. And that is my view of the actual intended meaning of huiothesia as used by Paul. Hence, in the NT sense, we are born anew by God's choice and therefore made sons in a spiritual sense, but we will be, at the Lord's second coming, made sons in a physical sense when we are resurrected in glorified bodies.
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Hi Darrell C, I too agree with your comments. Thanks for an actual discussion based on what the Bible says!
I agree that Romans 9:4 is worthy of discussion. But to stick with this topic, lets narrow in on "adoption as sons." Paul, I think, is listing some of the actions, bestowals of Divine favor, upon his kinsmen according to the flesh, i.e. in accordance with His promise to Abraham. In other scripture, Paul explains this is not actually a "blood line" promise but more of a "belief line promise" within the chosen people, but also includes a few from outside, i.e Ruth and Rahab.
1. The Greek word translated "adoption" or "adoption as sons" is huiothesia and literally means to "make son" or make sons in some sense. Where many disagree with me is that they include being made a son by being born again, thus adoption refers to salvation. Everyone agrees that being born again makes us sons of God but where folks part company with me is that I do not think "huiothesia" is used to refer to that way of being made sons or children of God.
2. In Deut. 7:6 we learn that the Israelities were "chosen" to be God's people. (See also Deut. 14:1) Thus, an all inclusive meaning of huiothesia would be "made sons, in some sense, by choice."
Since this idea of being made sons refers to freeing existent physical people in a physical sense, i.e out of the bondage of Pharaoh, we can add made sons in some physical sense, by choice. And that is my view of the actual intended meaning of huiothesia as used by Paul. Hence, in the NT sense, we are born anew by God's choice and therefore made sons in a spiritual sense, but we will be, at the Lord's second coming, made sons in a physical sense when we are resurrected in glorified bodies.
Hello Van, can't say I disagree with this. It is true that there remains the process of glorification in the life of the saints. And I look forward to a discussion of this, but, I have to go move furniture...lol.
God bless.