was The LAW Given To Isreal, or Also To the Church?

[agedman]

Again you are adding to what I have said. I never said we are to keep the law. The bible says is we say we know Him and do not keep the commandments we are a liar (not saved).

Wait, what is this??????

You state, "I never said we are to keep the law."

Then you state, "do not keep the commandments we are a liar..."

Either you are holding that the believers are to keep the law (commandments) or you are not.

FAL, I don't want to break down the whole chapter of 1 John 2, but let me suggest that the beloved apostle isn't even suggesting what you desire.

I will give you a few short sentences of explanation.

John is showing that talk and no walk is a fault. That the believer is to walk the talk.

It is not enough for us to claim to know Christ, but to also demonstrate obedience and love. That is why he mentions the commandments but not to impose a demand of "we have to" upon the believer, but demonstrating the end result of walking the talk is that the commandment of Christ will be met.

A few verses later John discusses the relationship Love has in all this.

Paul said it similarly in the 13th chapter of Corinthians.

Peter said it similarly in the 2 Peter the 3rd chapter (towards the end if I recall correctly).

Just what is the commandment that John, Peter, Paul are telling the believer they are to obey?

I doubt that there is no greater authority on the matter than Christ himself who talked of Love and the Father and what His commandment to the believer really is:

"As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knows not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

These things I command you, that ye love one another." John 16

 

[Iconoclast]

I see a problem with the presentation that the believer is to keep that which was complete in Christ.

The ceremonal and judicial laws were completed in Christ...The ten commandments are still for all men today


The believer doesn't keep nor is responsible to keep the law, and the law doesn't keep the believer.

Believers are not lawless...but out of love and obedience we keep the ten commandments...not to be, or stay saved...but rather because we are saved.
Let me put it this way...which of the 10 are we free to sin against?
All other commands given in the Nt are an expansion of the ten commandments.

Scriptures teach that the law is a school master that "brings us" to Christ. Once "in Christ" who fulfilled all the law, what further need have we of the school master?

Yes...the ceremonial aspects of the law were a schoolmaster for Israel in the theocracy.


Of course, the believer doesn't keep the ceremonial commands - they were pictures of the "real thing." Why look at a picture of a "sody water" when you have the actual Dr. Pepper to enjoy?

When ask, Jesus indicated two commands - Love God and love neighbor.

Agedman...the two are actually the ten commandments.....two tables of the law...1-4 Love to God......5-10...love to neighbor
We are to keep those two. For societal peace we keep some of the others some of the time. For even John admitted that we do occasionally sin.


No....all men are to keep the ten...unbelievers sin against the ten commandments and will be judged...sin is a transgression of the law.
Sinners in the middle of the rain forrest never heard of ceremonial laws of Israel...when they sin it is against the ten commandments




The believer doesn't commit adultery or steal because it is against the law, rather to do so destroys the neighborly love.

All sin is against God's law...you cannot "love your neighbor" while you are adulterating with their spouse.....sin is lawnessness.

The believer honors their mother and father not because the law demands it, but because of the love of God flowing from the heart obliges elders to be esteemed.

The law demands it...it is not an option

We "do what is right and Godly" not because there is a law, but because there is love.

Love IS the fulfilling of the law..rom13:10
Love is not just a random abstract concept...if you love your neighbor..you do not murder them or foricate with them, or lie to them ,or steal from them.


Part of what I think the covenant folks hold is that the law provides a social structure so believers and non believers can work and live together.

The law is an expression of God's Holiness...when we are told be ye holy, for i am Holy...what is your guideline for holiness?


So, it may be the Scriptural laws are some benefit to the civil order, but should not be imprinted upon the believer as a must do in order to keep one "right with God."

God keeps us......

11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

 

[agedman]

God keeps us......

If you hold that the laws were fulfilled in Christ, then it follows that the Ten Commandments hold no authority over the believer.

One doesn’t live in Grace and Law at the same time.

I agree that the believers are not “lawless” because Christ is the Word, and the Word included the law, the believer keeps the commandment not because they are commanded, but because Christ indwells our hearts.

Christ had ONE commandment for the believer to keep.

 

[freeatlast]

Wait, what is this??????

You state, "I never said we are to keep the law."

Then you state, "do not keep the commandments we are a liar..."

Either you are holding that the believers are to keep the law (commandments) or you are not.

FAL, I don't want to break down the whole chapter of 1 John 2, but let me suggest that the beloved apostle isn't even suggesting what you desire.

I will give you a few short sentences of explanation.

John is showing that talk and no walk is a fault. That the believer is to walk the talk.

It is not enough for us to claim to know Christ, but to also demonstrate obedience and love. That is why he mentions the commandments but not to impose a demand of "we have to" upon the believer, but demonstrating the end result of walking the talk is that the commandment of Christ will be met.

A few verses later John discusses the relationship Love has in all this.

Paul said it similarly in the 13th chapter of Corinthians.

Peter said it similarly in the 2 Peter the 3rd chapter (towards the end if I recall correctly).

Just what is the commandment that John, Peter, Paul are telling the believer they are to obey?

I doubt that there is no greater authority on the matter than Christ himself who talked of Love and the Father and what His commandment to the believer really is:

"As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knows not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

These things I command you, that ye love one another." John 16

The commandments do not save, but all believers keep them. If a person is not keeping the commandments they are not saved.
1John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

[agedman]

To further reinforce that we are not subject to the ten commandments I quote Paul.

TWICE Paul states:

"All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any."

"All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not."

If Paul was still under the "commandments" of the Old Testament, Paul would have had NO authority from God to write what he did.

I know, some will quickly point out that Paul is addressing "sin in the local church." Well, isn't that exactly the point!!!

Paul, as all believers, are not answerable to the "ten commandments" but to the Christ.

 

[agedman]

The commandments do not save, but all believers keep them. If a person is not keeping the commandments they are not saved.
1John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

"But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

"And if thine eye offends thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."

"And if thy hand offends thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"

"And if thy foot offends thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"

"And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell."

Applying the standard that you hold, believers should go about being blind, handless, footless, and no tongue, because, “Bless God, keeping all his commandments demands my obedience! Where is the saw! I don’t need anyone’s help, I can do all this on my own. Oops, perhaps I shouldn’t have started with the eyes!”

Taking a single verse and attempting to extrapolate a doctrine is a wrong concept.

Scriptures support Scriptures.

Precept upon precept.

 

[freeatlast]

To further reinforce that we are not subject to the ten commandments I quote Paul.

TWICE Paul states:

"All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any."

"All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not."

If Paul was still under the "commandments" of the Old Testament, Paul would have had NO authority from God to write what he did.

I know, some will quickly point out that Paul is addressing "sin in the local church." Well, isn't that exactly the point!!!

Paul, as all believers, are not answerable to the "ten commandments" but to the Christ.

And Christ always points us to the commandments.
1John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

By the way here is Paul's words,
1Cor 7:19
Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God [is what matters].

 

[agedman]

I have posted EXACTLY the commandment of Christ. But you deem not to respond, rather thump your one verse as if it is the trump card of the deck.

I have posted more than a dozen verses in support of the statements and principles stated.

You have repeatedly posted the same one - taken out of context and balance with the rest of Scriptures.

Because you have nothing more to add to the thread in the way of real Scriptural proof of your opinion, I wonder if the thread will fail at being edifying, helpful in righteousness, and augmenting the understanding to the saints.

 

[freeatlast]

I have posted EXACTLY the commandment of Christ. But you deem not to respond, rather thump your one verse as if it is the trump card of the deck.

I have posted more than a dozen verses in support of the statements and principles stated.

You have repeatedly posted the same one - taken out of context and balance with the rest of Scriptures.

Because you have nothing more to add to the thread in the way of real Scriptural proof of your opinion, I wonder if the thread will fail at being edifying, helpful in righteousness, and augmenting the understanding to the saints.

Here is two if you want more let me know.

1John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

By the way here is Paul's words,
1Cor 7:19
Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God [is what matters].

 

[Iconoclast]

If you hold that the laws were fulfilled in Christ, then it follows that the Ten Commandments hold no authority over the believer.

One doesn’t live in Grace and Law at the same time.

I agree that the believers are not “lawless” because Christ is the Word, and the Word included the law, the believer keeps the commandment not because they are commanded, but because Christ indwells our hearts.

Christ had ONE commandment for the believer to keep.

Agedman
You say the ten commandments have no authority? I do not hold this view ,as it is not what scripture teaches....look here-
[QUOTE 10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: ][/QUOTE]

In the new covenant notice God puts His laws....[plural] in our hearts..not just one commandment as you state......what text are you thinking of...the royal law idea?

Also ..in new covenant time....what law if any is the unbeliever under?

What law will unbelievers be judged by on the last day?

here is how many have understood it;
http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc19.html

aged man...take a couple of minutes and read this and let me know what you think about it.

We do live under law and grace at the same time.

 

[agedman]

Agedman
You say the ten commandments have no authority? I do not hold this view ,as it is not what scripture teaches....look here-
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

In the new covenant notice God puts His laws....[plural] in our hearts..not just one commandment as you state......what text are you thinking of...the royal law idea?

Also ..in new covenant time....what law if any is the unbeliever under?

What law will unbelievers be judged by on the last day?

here is how many have understood it;
http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc19.html

aged man...take a couple of minutes and read this and let me know what you think about it.

We do live under law and grace at the same time.

It seems you are mixing the promise of God to a soon coming future Israel with the Grace of God to believers in this age.

Not all the promises in the book are mine - the children's song is wrong! Some promises apply only to the church, some apply only to Israel. Very few apply to both at the same time, because Israel remains unregenerate and unrepentant in this present age.

Believers are not judged on the last day according to the law. Paul states that our work will be judged by fire what we have "built" upon the faith that God has given us. As for me, I will stink from the smoke and be singed because of the worthlessness I have piled up in my life!

When the great white throne judgment of God happens, the believers already have "stood the test." Those who have resided in hell and those who go through the millennium seem to be the ones that will be judged at that point.

We cannot live under law and grace at the same time. Paul dismissed that argument, and spoke very directly saying that "all things are lawful..."

The only commandment that the believer "lives under" is that which Christ gave and I posted look back a few for the quote from the gospels. Love Him and love the brethren.

I will look at what you linked later and respond back either by pm or on this thread.

 

[agedman]

Iconoclast ask me to respond from the a link he provided. I trust I am in the right place he desired. Please let me know if I am not.

From the London Baptist Confession of Faith 1689:

"Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, in that as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts, and lives, so as examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against, sin; together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ and the perfection of his obedience; it is likewise of use to the regenerate to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to shew what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse and unallayed rigour thereof. The promises of it likewise shew them God's approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, though not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works; so as man's doing good and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law and not under grace.

Neither are the aforementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it, the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God, revealed in the law, requireth to be done."
Note: supporting verses were left out of the quote for room sake.


I do not see were these statement contradict what I have stated.

The very first sentence restates what I have stated on this thread.

I have stated that the Word of God dwelling in us compels us into alignment with the “rule(s) of life" the commandments.

Jesus said, “My yoke is easy, the burden light.” The “binding” then is merely the Sovereign expressing his will.

This confession points to the very natural result of sin affecting the person as is common with all mankind. This is in agreement with my statements on this thread.

The first paragraph ends with a reaffirmation that the believer is not under that law. That is the believer is under no obligation to nor is the salvation threatened by not being "under" the law. This is as I have stated in the thread.

The second paragraph is also as I have posted on this thread.

I am glad to know the LBC of 1689 agrees with me.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast ask me to respond from the a link he provided. I trust I am in the right place he desired. Please let me know if I am not.

From the London Baptist Confession of Faith 1689:

"Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, in that as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts, and lives, so as examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against, sin; together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ and the perfection of his obedience; it is likewise of use to the regenerate to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to shew what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse and unallayed rigour thereof. The promises of it likewise shew them God's approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, though not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works; so as man's doing good and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law and not under grace.

Neither are the aforementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it, the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God, revealed in the law, requireth to be done."
Note: supporting verses were left out of the quote for room sake.


I do not see were these statement contradict what I have stated.

The very first sentence restates what I have stated on this thread.

I have stated that the Word of God dwelling in us compels us into alignment with the “rule(s) of life" the commandments.

Jesus said, “My yoke is easy, the burden light.” The “binding” then is merely the Sovereign expressing his will.

This confession points to the very natural result of sin affecting the person as is common with all mankind. This is in agreement with my statements on this thread.

The first paragraph ends with a reaffirmation that the believer is not under that law. That is the believer is under no obligation to nor is the salvation threatened by not being "under" the law. This is as I have stated in the thread.

The second paragraph is also as I have posted on this thread.

I am glad to know the LBC of 1689 agrees with me.

Let me help make it simple aged man....

If for example a person lies by saying he is a christian...when in reality he was a mormon worshipping a false god from the planet kolub.....and another jesus who he believed was a half brother to lucifer ....would you say this person violated the law???? or does he come short on LOVE???

5._____ The moral law doth for ever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof, and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it; neither doth Christ in the Gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.
( Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8, 10-12; James 2:10, 11; Matthew 5:17-19; Romans 3:31 )

 

[agedman]

Let me help make it simple aged man....

If for example a person lies by saying he is a christian...when in reality he was a mormon worshipping a false god from the planet kolub.....and another jesus who he believed was a half brother to lucifer ....would you say this person violated the law???? or does he come short on LOVE???

I would say that he is a false prophet and violates the standard God established. Paul said from such the church is to turn out and turn away from.

But that has little to do with the thread.

 

[agedman]

Iconoclast:

"The moral law doth for ever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof, and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it; neither doth Christ in the Gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation."

This doesn't disagree with what I stated.

I will repeat. There is a general natural affect impacting any who violate the moral law. It is as the Scriptures teach imprinted upon every human heart and when they stand in judgment do not have an excuse - just because no body told them of Christ.

As a believer, the law is not an obligation or responsibility that is demanded, rather because the believer has the very nature and Word of God in Christ, the believer will be obliged to follow the law.

What this thread is about is whether that following is a condition of salvation.

As the LBC clearly states, it is not. Rather it is, as I stated, showing that some who claim to be a believer are frauds because they continue without consequence and rebuke in sin.

 

[Iconoclast]

I would say that he is a false prophet and violates the standard God established. Paul said from such the church is to turn out and turn away from.

But that has little to do with the thread.

ok...but what about the paragraph 5 I posted......

5._____ The moral law doth for ever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof, and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it; neither doth Christ in the Gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation. ( Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8, 10-12; James 2:10, 11; Matthew 5:17-19; Romans 3:31 )

Aged man we cross posted...I see your response now

 

[convicted1]

Well Brethern, the Law is "null and void" by the completed works of the cross. When Christ was risen, and seated on the right hand of the Father in heaven, He abolished the Law. We now live under Grace.


Col. 2:9-15
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.


Jesus "blotted out" the Law. Under the Law, you had a circumcision of the foreskin, but under the Grace Covenant, it is the circumcision of the heart, that God does Himself. He takes away the stony heart, and gives us a fleshly heart that loves. The Law never could give life, but Grace can, and does.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


Galatians 3:11-13

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:



Galatians 3:24-29
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


There was no justification or righteousness under the Law. The Law was placed there to show them(and us) that they/we aren't "self-sufficient", but rather "self-defficient". The Law put our sins up on a billboard, so to speak. The Law, at no point in time, could ever give eternal life. Only the shed blood of Christ, which blotted out the Law, can give eternal life. If the ten commandments are still in effect today, you better not work on whatever day y'all call the Sabbath. If you work on the Sabbath, you will surely be put to death if the ten commandments are in effect today.

 

[plain_n_simple]

Thank you convicted1, it's as plain and simple as what you presented.

 

[convicted1]

Thank you convicted1, it's as plain and simple as what you presented.

Here is something else that will support my claim:

2 Corinthians 3
1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?

2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:


11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.



Christ abolished the Law. It's gone now, and we are now under Grace. Give me Grace ver Law any day of the week!!

 

[plain_n_simple]

Yes! I have all those and more in a special folder called "The Law Shuts Up Faith." I think it's a big hurdle for new Christians because some misguided well-meaning person told them the Ten Commandments (actually 613) will keep you walking straight. Kudos to you!