Is sinless perfection possible for the believer before death?

[MB]

"Lord, forgive me, I have sinned." As soon as I realized it in my heart that I sinned, then asked Him forgiveness, I am brand new. Sinless perfection.

Amen Plain and simple. This is the only perfection man can attain even if it is only for a little while.
MB

 

[freeatlast]

Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. (James 4:17)
--This is simply a definition of sin. It does nothing to support your position.

You misunderstand that verse. When was there "no law"?

According to 1John 1:8,10, you cannot and you are simply deceiving yourself, and making Christ a liar. Not a good position to put yourself in.

A different topic, a different thread. Deathbed salvations. Why not open another thread?

Sure it has been possible. There have been many people saved within moments of their death, but that is not the subject here.

To live a life without sin, or a sinless life, or in sinless perfection? There is no such thing and the Bible contradicts such thinking.

A rebuke to antinomianism.

Christ is the only one that overcame all sin. You aren't Christ, and neither are any of us. That comparison is almost blasphemous.

True, but is it a one hundred per cent guarantee for the body of this flesh, that I am going to yield to the Spirit 100% of the time? No, there isn't. You think that verse teaches that you have a warranty, and if it fails you can take it back to God. Sin doesn't work that way. That is why 1John 1:9 is in the Bible.

You still have an old nature that from time to time allows you to make the wrong choice, the sinful choice. Are you better than Paul?

For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. (Romans 7:19-22)

No we do not have an old nature. Also before Moses there was not written law.

 

[freeatlast]

James 4:17 in context does not teach what you desire. James is talking about some who go about boasting what they will accomplish the next day. He clearly states that such boasting is evil and that the promise of tomorrow is not theirs to determine, only God's. It is in THAT context that "to him that knows to do good..." is stated. It should NOT be disseminated into what you would carry it.

Romans 5:13 in context would disagree with your conclusion.

Just because the law was not written down in stone that someone could point to and cite the wrong didn't mean it was not imprinted upon the people living before Moses.

Because the law was imprinted, all people were held accountable - they died (wages of sin is death). In fact, only 8 were saved and that by the direct intervention of God.

It is an opinion only that the thief (I am assuming you mean the one who ask the Lord to remember him and not the one who jeered) had not sinned. The focus of that section is upon Christ. There is no statement as to what the thieves said when their legs were broken.

I totally agree that a person should work to sin less each day. It is true that some can "work out their salvation" with seemingly less problems in this carnal world system.

However, as John stated, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

A problem comes with the thinking that FAL sets out in recognizing the condition of the believer before God, and the condition of the believer in this world system.

John never says that a person can live a perfect life without sin in this world, but he does state that a person can live a perfect life without sin in this world.

Does that sound like double talk?

Look through a window. What do you see? Now stand were you saw and look through the same window. What do you see? Did you see the window or look through the window? Perhaps you did both.

From God's perspective (God looking at man through the window of Christ), man is sinless, perfected in Christ, and not the least bit held accountable for or to the standards of the law.
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed (Christ - the Word) remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

From the human perspective (man looking at God through the window of Christ), man is ashamed that he is entrusted as an ambassador for Christ in such a faulty, frail, and sin prone condition.
"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

Thank you for your thoughts but I gave you the proof you asked for and I stand on what the bible says.

 

[percho]

Here is the problem. If your mind is made up on the matter no amount of reasonable, or even biblical evidence will suffice as someone will still say but they could have sinned and we just do not know.
Also you used the term "sinless perfection." Living without sin does not make us perfect. It simply means we lived with no known sin (James 4:17) just as those before the law ( Romans 5:13) as sin is only imputed when the deed is understood as sin. So yes a person can live without sinning, but few do and most are not interested in seeking such. None the less the thief on the cross I believe lived his life after salvation sinless as well as many others since. So it is not only possible, but I believe it has been done.

Sadly and to our shame and the dishonor of Christ most in the church has not learned this lesson; Romans 6:14,15 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
All sin is a choice and no person is pressured (tempted) so greatly that they cannot, not sin.
1 Cor. 10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

So every time we sin it is a willful choice, and because of that yes we can live without sinning after salvation.
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this the whole of man.

While in the flesh, will the free will of man always choose to sin? For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Cut yourself and post back whether you bled of not.

Adam did not fall per say, he did not become flesh and blood the day he sinned. He was not made for the kingdom of God as he was created. All humans after Adam including Jesus were/are born of the flesh and are flesh.
For the very purpose for the Son of God, the sinless one who did not deserve to be paid the wages of sin, could come as his type, figure and destroy him that had the power of death Satan, in whose presence for some strange reason Adam was put. Jesus the Christ came into the world a living soul just like Adam yet without sin, died for us and as the last Adam was resurrected a quickening Spirit fit for the kingdom of God. Two verses
1 Cor 15:46 Howbeit that not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. After the resurrection.
Well so far that has only happened to Jesus.
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Made perfect is relative to his resurrection, this day have I begotten (born) thee, which also established him to be made high priest after the order of Melchisedec. See 5-10 same chapter.


We have to be spirit born as spiritual beings by resurrection or instant change at the coming of Jesus the Christ to be fit to enter, see, of inherit the kingdom of God, then we will be unable to sin.

 

[Winman]

No we do not have an old nature. Also before Moses there was not written law.

There was law before Moses' law.

Gen 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.

This was written nearly 500 years before Moses and the written law, and the scriptures say the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before God.

What law had they broken? NATURAL LAW. It is obvious to anyone that men and women are designed for each other, and that men with men, or women with women is unnatural and contrary to God's design and intention.

Paul shows this in Romans.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Men by NATURE understand homosexuality is wrong, you don't need written law to understand this.

By the way, this argues against the doctrine of Total Depravity, if men are utterly depraved by nature, sins like homosexuality would be NATURAL.

But back to the subject, Paul also writes in Rom 2:12-15 that men without the written law keep the law, showing the law written upon their hearts, and ARE A LAW UNTO THEMSELVES.

There has always been law, even before the written law of Moses, and this is exactly what Paul is referring to in Rom 5:13-14.

 

[freeatlast]

There was law before Moses' law.

Gen 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.

This was written nearly 500 years before Moses and the written law, and the scriptures say the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before God.

What law had they broken? NATURAL LAW. It is obvious to anyone that men and women are designed for each other, and that men with men, or women with women is unnatural and contrary to God's design and intention.

Paul shows this in Romans.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Men by NATURE understand homosexuality is wrong, you don't need written law to understand this.

By the way, this argues against the doctrine of Total Depravity, if men are utterly depraved by nature, sins like homosexuality would be NATURAL.

But back to the subject, Paul also writes in Rom 2:12-15 that men without the written law keep the law, showing the law written upon their hearts, and ARE A LAW UNTO THEMSELVES.

There has always been law, even before the written law of Moses, and this is exactly what Paul is referring to in Rom 5:13-14.

You are deeply deceived. There was not written law before Moses.

 

[agedman]

You are deeply deceived. There was not written law before Moses.

How do you know?

Are you saying that the law was not imprinted into each humankind and couldn't have been written down by some social interconnected group? I disagree with the thinking there was no written law before Moses.

Perhaps, those who were attempting to build the tower to heaven wrote certain society laws that allowed folks to get along together.

Certainly, Noah had communities around him that were constructed around some kind of social interactive agreement.

Just because Moses was given the law in stone form and it was to be followed by the Jews didn't mean that he couldn't have been charged with murder before he fled Egypt. There were laws in the land long before Abraham arrived in Egypt over 400 years before Moses.

 

[freeatlast]

How do you know?

Are you saying that the law was not imprinted into each humankind and couldn't have been written down by some social interconnected group? I disagree with the thinking there was no written law before Moses.

Perhaps, those who were attempting to build the tower to heaven wrote certain society laws that allowed folks to get along together.

Certainly, Noah had communities around him that were constructed around some kind of social interactive agreement.

Just because Moses was given the law in stone form and it was to be followed by the Jews didn't mean that he couldn't have been charged with murder before he fled Egypt. There were laws in the land long before Abraham arrived in Egypt over 400 years before Moses.

This is not about social governances by man. This is about the law of God. There was no written law from God prior to the law of Moses. As how I know it is because the bible says there was a time before the law. A time when the law entered human time Romans 5:20

 

[Winman]

This is not about social governances by man. This is about the law of God. There was no written law from God prior to the law of Moses. As how I know it is because the bible says there was a time before the law. A time when the law entered human time Romans 5:20

I notice you are careful to say "written" law. You are correct, there was no "written" law from God before Moses.

But there was law. Did Adam and Eve have a written law? NO. They had a spoken law, but it was certainly law.

And Gen 13:13 shows there was natural law before Moses, God called the men of Sodom wicked and "sinners". So, if there can be no sin without transgression of the law, how could God himself call the Sodomites "sinners"?

So, scripture EASILY refutes your view. The fact that there was not a written law from God does not mean there was no law in place. It very much was, Sodom and Gomorrah were judged by God as exceedingly sinful without a "written" law and justly destroyed. Men by NATURE know and understand homosexuality is sin.

 

[freeatlast]

I notice you are careful to say "written" law. You are correct, there was no "written" law from God before Moses.

But there was law. Did Adam and Eve have a written law? NO. They had a spoken law, but it was certainly law.

And Gen 13:13 shows there was natural law before Moses, God called the men of Sodom wicked and "sinners". So, if there can be no sin without transgression of the law, how could God himself call the Sodomites "sinners"?

So, scripture EASILY refutes your view. The fact that there was not a written law from God does not mean there was no law in place. It very much was, Sodom and Gomorrah were judged by God as exceedingly sinful without a "written" law and justly destroyed. Men by NATURE know and understand homosexuality is sin.

This is about God's law to man and that was not given until Moses in reagrds to living with no sin after salvation. It is possible as I have shown in my first post.

 

[DHK]

No we do not have an old nature. Also before Moses there was not written law.

Fal, as I look through your answers (like this one) to me, and to others, I see that you are being trite and putting no effort into discussing anything with pretty much anyone. The same holds true in another thread I was just reading. If you are not interested in debating the issue, in responding to those who have responded to you; but rather just give them angry little quips, then maybe the threads should just be closed.

 

[freeatlast]

Fal, as I look through your answers (like this one) to me, and to others, I see that you are being trite and putting no effort into discussing anything with pretty much anyone. The same holds true in another thread I was just reading. If you are not interested in debating the issue, in responding to those who have responded to you; but rather just give them angry little quips, then maybe the threads should just be closed.

Whether a thread is closed or not is not my call so go for it is you want. My response though short was accurate and that is all that matters. There was no written law from God prior to Moses.

 

[DHK]

Whether a thread is closed or not is not my call so go for it is you want. My response though short was accurate and that is all that matters. There was no written law from God prior to Moses.

That is no verse that speaks of "written law" is there?
Was there law before Moses, yes or no?
Of course there was!
There was a law (command) right from the garden of Eden--not to eat of the forbidden tree--or, what would happen?
Breaking God's law has its consequences.

 

[freeatlast]

That is no verse that speaks of "written law" is there?
Was there law before Moses, yes or no?
Of course there was!
There was a law (command) right from the garden of Eden--not to eat of the forbidden tree--or, what would happen?
Breaking God's law has its consequences.

No written law?
Romans;
2:23
2:25
2:26
2:27
3:19
3:20
3:21
3:28
3:31
4:13
No written law? :laugh:

 

[DHK]

No written law?
Romans;
2:23
2:25
2:26
2:27
3:19
3:20
3:21
3:28
3:31
4:13
No written law? :laugh:

Are you laughing at yourself?
You quote Scripture that quotes the law of Moses. So?
What is your point?

Was there a written law before the law of Moses?
The Bible doesn't specify that it had to be a written law, did it?

Here is the verse under discussion, for I fear you have lost all perspective of context:

(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (Romans 5:13)
--Note: "Sin is not imputed when there is no law."
The word "written" is not in that statement.
Paul is writing hypothetically. Why? Because there was law, and has been law ever since the Garden of Eden. And as long as there has been law there has been sin, and the consequences thereof.

 

[freeatlast]

Are you laughing at yourself?
You quote Scripture that quotes the law of Moses. So?
What is your point?

Was there a written law before the law of Moses?
The Bible doesn't specify that it had to be a written law, did it?

Here is the verse under discussion, for I fear you have lost all perspective of context:

(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (Romans 5:13)
--Note: "Sin is not imputed when there is no law."
The word "written" is not in that statement.
Paul is writing hypothetically. Why? Because there was law, and has been law ever since the Garden of Eden. And as long as there has been law there has been sin, and the consequences thereof.

The point is there was and is a written law and it had a beginning.

 

[DHK]

The point is there was and is a written law and it had a beginning.

1. Romans 5:13 does not speak of a written law.
2. When did this law, referred to in Romans 5:13, begin?

 

[freeatlast]

1. Romans 5:13 does not speak of a written law.
2. When did this law, referred to in Romans 5:13, begin?

Yea right! It is speaking of the law of Moses given through Moses

 

[DHK]

Yea right! It is speaking of the law of Moses given through Moses

Sin has been in existence since Adam and Eve.
The LAW that Adam and Eve broke was the "Law" that God gave them--not to eat of the fruit of the tree of good and evil. They disobeyed that Law.
Law has existed since creation. It just wasn't Moses Law, and the verse doesn't say it had to be Moses' Law.

 

[freeatlast]

Sin has been in existence since Adam and Eve.
The LAW that Adam and Eve broke was the "Law" that God gave them--not to eat of the fruit of the tree of good and evil. They disobeyed that Law.
Law has existed since creation. It just wasn't Moses Law, and the verse doesn't say it had to be Moses' Law.

The law given to Adam was to Him alone. No one aftere the fall can duplicte that sin so that law is not more. The only law given after that to all mankind was the law of Moses.